151. Regenerating Australia Live in Beverley
With Damon Gameau, Di & Ian Haggerty, Oral McGuire & Grant Revell
Over the last couple of years Damon Gameau, the brilliant Aussie film-maker behind Regenerating Australia, 2040, That Sugar Film and Animal Beatbox, has joined me at this time to take a look at the year ahead. Last year happened to land on Valentine’s Day. So while Damon’s giving himself and his family some well-earned dedicated time right now, it gives me the chance to share this unique event with you.
Damon Gameau (on screen), Anthony James, Grant Revell, Ian & Di Haggerty, Oral McGuire - & Claire Broun managing the stage (pic: Martin Pell).
“So it really is trying to see these solutions in a much more holistic manner. And sometimes we get caught in this sort of carbon tunnel syndrome in Australia, or just looking at emissions. And we really don’t look at the land and the soil and the water cycles of the planet, and the habitats. So we really have to approach this in a much more holistic way than we have been. And see that our architecture of our system, the engine of our economy, is causing all these things.”
This was a Town Hall dialogue that followed a community screening of Regenerating Australia, in Beverley, in the wheat belt of WA. Local woman Claire Broun & husband Martin brought together a rare and powerful line up, featuring prominent local Noongar man Oral McGuire, nearby regenerative farmers Di & Ian Haggerty, locally engaged landscape architect and rural planner Grant Revell, and Damon online from the other side of the country. Yours truly was host.
We start with a profound Welcome to Country by Oral, before I introduce our guests, and later our audience. With love.
3.20 Oral
7.20 Panel conversation
24.50 Audience gets involved
This conversation was recorded in the Beverley Town Hall, with Damon appearing online from home in New South Wales, on 17 June 2022.
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Please note this transcript isn’t perfect, but hopefully serves to provide greater access to these conversations for those who need or like to read.
Claire (mum) 00:00
Can you do it again? Go.
Hamish 00:03
1234-567-8910.
Anthony 00:07
You're with The RegenNarration, exploring how people are enabling the regeneration of life on this planet by changing the systems and stories we live by. It's independent media, free of ads, and freely available, thanks to the support of listeners like you. Thanks so much to you, Claire Broun, for your generous donation and subscription and of course for organizing the event that features in today's episode. Thanks also to Luca, yes, you might remember Dr. Cat for doubling your monthly subscription amount, and for your recent assistance. If you too sense something worthwhile in all this, please consider joining Claire and Luca, part of a great community of supporting listeners, with as little as $3 a month or whatever amount you can and want to contribute. You can get all sorts of benefits, principally, of course, continuing to receive the podcast with transcripts every week. Just head to the website via the show notes regennarration.com/support. Thanks a lot.
Damon 00:08
So it really is trying to see these solutions in a much more holistic manner. And sometimes we get caught in this sort of carbon tunnel syndrome in Australia, or just looking at emissions. And we really don't look at the land and the soil and the water cycles of the planet, and the habitats. So we really have to approach this in a much more holistic way than we have been. And see that our architecture of our system, the engine of our economy, is causing all these things.
Anthony 01:43
G'day, my name's Anthony James, this is The RegenNarration and that was Damon Gameau. Over the last couple of years, this good mate and brilliant Aussie filmmaker behind Regenerating Australia, 2040, That Sugar Film and Animal Beatbox, has joined me at this time to take a look at the year ahead. Last year happened to land on Valentine's Day. Oh yeah, it's now national regenerative agriculture day too. But like so many things, the two can surely coexist harmoniously. And I know some pretty romantic farmers, not mentioning any names. Maybe have a look at episode 78. Anyway, Damon was my podcast Valentine. So while he's giving himself and his family some well earned dedicated time right now, it gives me the chance to share this unique event with you. This was a town hall dialogue that followed a community screening of Regenerating Australia, in Beverley in the Wheatbelt of WA. Local woman Claire Broun and husband Martin brought together a rare and powerful lineup, featuring prominent local Noongar man Oral McGuire, nearby regenerative farmers Di and Ian Haggerty, locally engaged landscape architect and rural planner, Grant Revell, and Damon online from the other side of the country. Yours truly was host. We start with a profound Welcome to Country by Oral before I introduce our guests, and later, our audience. With love to Damon. And you.
Oral 03:22
I was born here actually. I didn't I didn't grow up here. So some of you may think that I'm a bloody ring in, but my family's actually been right, right around these sort of places. You know, my nephew from Brookton is here, Ronnie McGuire and the Maguires, the Bennells, the Yarrans, the Blurtons. And of course, a lot of the, the Henrys and the Yugles, obviously from this town, and the Morrishs or Moorarts. I just want to acknowledge all of those families. So I am part of the Ballardong Noongar clans and language group of the Noongar nation. And this area here as some of you may or may not know, is part of Ballardong Budja. And we, as custodians, we actually we hold the spirit of the land through our long connection to these lands, 2000 generations 60,000 years all that sort of stuff. And we practiced and held first law for this land. So all of that is in the context of you know, these welcomes to country that are about the spirit of the land, and we acknowledge first and foremost that we stand on very powerful country. The spirit of this land is very old. And it's very powerful. Those of you who who obviously farm or or lived in in the country out this way and anywhere and have spent time connecting to to the spirit of land and country, acknowledge and would also feel and know that nature is a very powerful force. I think this video, having seen it already is a credit to Damon and his team. And I just want to welcome you here tonight but acknowledge that this is a really interesting little Doco. And I think it's sort of, it's quite thought provoking. So it's good to be a part of it. And I'm glad to see a really good turnout here in Beverly town hall tonight. So, in our Ballardong noongar language, we say wanjoo wanjoo [Oral speaks in language at length here]. So what I said was welcome to the lands here of of Ballardong people. This is Bellardong Budja. There are lots of sacred places and very powerful places. Some of them you may have heard, and some of them you may not have. Jiljarin is a place further down the road. We've got Quanbagayn or Quabajinning as it's known in noongar. We've also got menjelangin which is water hatch, there's a little rock pool there. There's Mondayin, which is nandyack I think you mob call that. And of course, there's the goggleja, the Avon River itself. So we acknowledge the hills and the rocks and the sacredness of this land. I call on the spirit of my old people, my grandmothers and my grandfathers, or our grandmothers and our grandfathers who still travel and still hold us as noongar people and yourselves even as human beings, they still give us that connection to country. So I also said that when you travel home tonight, or when you leave here, that your your spirit travels safely and slowly [more Noongar language here]. So thank you and enjoy the night.
Anthony 07:18
My name's Anthony James, it's a real privilege to be here. I host The RegenNarration podcast and I toured this film through southwest WA when Damon was over here a few weeks ago, which is when I met Claire and how I came to be here tonight. But it didn't start there. It actually started with townhall meetings just like this. But going back probably 15 years ago or something. I had an international development, sustainability background prior to that, amongst other things, but that's the short of it. And started to feel like these sorts of conversations were the really enabling mechanisms of good things just period, what we might call, you know, regeneration in this context. So to see this happening is awesome. It's also where the podcast sprung out of because then I thought, well, how can we do this in a way that doesn't involve big logistics every time? How can it get out to regions? How could it inspire perhaps more of this stuff to happen outside of cities for people just to get together because that is where our trust in each other builds and the ideas and, and the visions as you were talking about Grant. So it's a real privilege to be here and I'm thankful for you for having me. I'm also thankful for Claire to be putting in the hard yards to bring it together. And for you Grant for hosting tonight. Thanks a lot. And to you Oral for your welcome. Thanks indeed for having us on country here to you and your mob. I'm from whadjuk Noongar country down in Scarborough on the coast, I do get around the country a little bit. And I would like to acknowledge here the Ballardong country and culture among our first artists, storytellers, and of course, regenerative custodians, we might say, for 10s of millennia, I still have to emphasize that to myself. It's something we're still obviously coming to terms with. The format we're going to run with here is mostly engaging with you guys. But we'll start up here. You already know who you're looking at a little bit, but I want to sort of bring you in on how my path crossed their paths. And now yours. So Oral, aka the Reverend - long story, another time - we met at - there was a regen wa conference at Perth Stadium, quite a big affair a few years ago. That's where I met actually these three for the first time. And Oral's place then I visited a little after that through the organization he just visited in Holland called Commonland with increasing involvement in WA. To see that indigenous led restoration of country at Oral's place blew me away. And it's a whole other frame of reference and model of restoration, that's magnificent. And then to get a bit further up the road at Di and Ian's place after that conference, which is when we recorded the podcast with them over a couple of days, and to see that scale of restoration 65,000 acres with those sorts of results was extraordinary. And then to see that they'd actually just had the instance of sheep starting to drink from what had been a totally salinified pond, pool. And they thought, What the hell are they doing drinking out of that? It had purified, it had developed a freshwater lens on top. I mean things like that have just really not only struck my imagination, but people right around the country, and like Oral, the world. And Grant, it's the first time we've met tonight, which I'm really happy about, just to learn a little bit about his background in in schools of design and Indigenous Studies at UWA, as an Associate Dean, and broader work as a landscape architect and rural planner, and indeed, connection to Claire and Martin here through all that. And I am intrigued, seeing on your online profile that you founded The Listening Foundation. That might be another conversation as well. Have we got the man how are we traveling? We do. Damon Hello, can you hear me mate? Not on the big screen. Yes, you are - coming and going. Such such a dramatic fellow isn't he? Melodramatic, you could say. Alright, because he can hear me. I'll introduce him again, just by way of connection. So I first met Damon, going back four years now in his neck of the woods. So we'd got around east by that point with the podcast, it had only just started mind you at that stage. He was one of my early guests, just before 2040 came out, which was his big feature film some of you may have seen and if you haven't, give it a look, you can stream it online easily. And there's a whole 15 minute stretch on regenerative agriculture in that film. So we met then. And I remember actually most of all the cuppa around the kitchen table afterwards, where we both exchanged our notes on the things we'd seen around the country. Extraordinary tales of regeneration in various contexts everywhere. And it was the first time we thought, gee, something's up here. And we've continued to see it in the years since and it's some of what you've seen in the visioning here tonight. So while he's set up now, I'd love to welcome him into the room, particularly as the master filmmaker who brought this to us, can you give him a big hand in particular, and of course, the rest of our guests here tonight.
Damon 12:39
Thank you
Anthony 12:40
Everyone on the stage is indeed here giving their time freely. Such is the passion for being in this company in these sorts of conversations. So Damon, I want to throw to you first, to bring you in, into the room best we can, just with a sense from you of what it means to be present and having the film screen in environments like this. And indeed, some of what you're sensing and seeing that's happening around the country.
Damon 13:06
Yeah, well, firstly, thanks for putting on the event tonight. We ended up doing 62 screenings around the country. And we currently have almost 700 in play, from councils, to schools, to corporations. And so it's been incredibly heartening to see the uptake and the response to the film. But I think more pleasingly, has been the flow on effect, whether that has been teachers that have already brought the curriculum materials into their schools and are starting to teach the kids concepts of regeneration. And there are really wonderful exercises there, where they learn about the different transpiration rates of a native plant, or introduced plant - all sorts of interesting lessons. And also the ideas that have been submitted. So WWF put up a $2 million philanthropic fund off the back of the film for anyone that sees it and wants to start a solution in their own community, whether that's an urban food project or a battery, whatever it might be, and just to see the caliber of those ideas that have come in. We're over 120 now. And I'd say 80% of them are really regenerative in their design and thinking, whether they're indigenous led, or they're looking at new governance structures of how the benefits are accrued, or distributed amongst the community, really, a lot of holistic thought has gone into them. So we're actually in the process - we've got a screening for the Labour Party in a couple of weeks to say, look, we need $20 million - $2 million is not enough. We want to get all these solutions up and running, and then introduce them to the right impact investors and other groups that we can really start this thriving regenerative network right around the country. So I think what people really understood is that often Regeneration has been referred to as agriculture and that's terrific because it's such a beautiful metaphor and example but now other people are starting to see what can they do that's regenerative in their own industries, whether that is architects or in the energy sector, or in fashion, wherever it might be, there are regenerative principles to apply to every industry. And in fact, that's the only way we're going to pull this off is if we do do that across the whole spectrum and look at this in a more holistic way. So it's been a really extraordinary few months, but also fulfilled by what's been going on.
Anthony 15:20
Thanks, Damon. And that is to emphasize to you guys here tonight, ordinarily, when Damon's here in person for those 70 screenings, or whatever he did, there would be a slide up, which I think might go up later on in terms of the things you can go on with, which include accessing potentially those funds, which will continue to expand. So the fact there's been a huge response is not to dissuade you guys here from potentially entering that too. Can I go to you Oral, but then by way of coming to each of you, for a sense of what it means to you for this sort of dialogue to be happening here. And indeed, a sense of what you're - having just come back from overseas too Oral - but even just here, what do you see and sense is happening in the realm of this stuff, and the possibilities?
Oral 16:05
Firstly, I think that people, all of us collectively, absolutely realize that we are in an emergency for our very existence and survival. So it's, and it's not about the doomsday or the negativity around, you know, the end of the world type thinking, it's actually understanding - and this is backed by science, it's backed by simply, you know, observing the weather patterns and what's happening in our own backyard, if you like, it's happening right here, where we live here in Beverley, and it's happening in the world. That we understand that there is a need for change, there's a need for awakening about what is going on. So we need to stop the denial from our leaders particularly. And we need to start to understand that, that in a cultural context that, that Mother Earth needs us, and, and we need Mother Earth. And in fact, we need Mother Earth far more than Mother Earth needs us. Because this earth will regenerate itself without us when we're gone. That's that's the truth of the matter. And it's important that we understand what science is telling us. But we also understand from our own knowledge and our own history, I mean, some of you have lived in this region have lived on the land for many decades. And I think if you honestly look back over your life as I do, and realize that how things have changed in nature, we must admit and accept that there it is time for significant change. And it's got to be en masse, there's no point one or two of us doing a few things, we must have whole populations or significant portions of whole populations, committing to and disciplining ourselves around the change that is needed.
Anthony 18:16
And Di and Ian what's your sense of the possibility, need and possibility, I guess, particularly what you bring to the room as well, you know, around these regions?
Di 18:28
I guess, as Oral has just pointed out, you know, it is a massive need. And it is something that all of us, as members of the community need to come together. And I think this documentary that Damon's put together, gives hope that we can all pull together and do things, each individual can contribute and make a significant change. And we do have to get on to that very rapidly and work together as a team to make sure that these positive changes can be implemented and put pressure on the governments and so forth to be, you know, taking some action instead of just talking about it.
Anthony 19:01
And Ian, when Di says that you're not just sort of plucking hope out of the sky are you? This is something that you've witnessed, over the last certainly 25 years or more of your experience that people are getting stuck in and seeing some pretty brilliant stuff happen.
Ian 19:17
Oh, absolutely. And I think Di and I've been lucky enough to experience that from all around the world. So you're not just seeing it, just in one isolated spot. And what we've realized, by all pulling together we can make a big, big difference. And as farmers and especially for myself, to actually be up here we have to get out of our comfort zones. We've only got one planet and we have to look back to some of the deeper wisdoms of what's been done, and we can change things and get out there and have a go and do that.
Anthony 19:55
Grant, what does it mean to you to see a night like this happen here and the sense of possibility for regions like this?
Grant 20:02
Yeah. Look, you know, I want to echo what's been said tonight, on the panel. I mean, the design emergency is critical. And I think that we're all creative. I truly believe that - I think everyone is a designer. And I think design has been misinterpreted in Australia over the years. Design is really just an agent for managing change. And we should just draw on that design ethos that we all have. Australians are a peculiar bunch, we love to have a go. You know, it's interesting, the recent success at the World Cup was based on this idea that they could have a go, you know, and that was drilled into those soccer players to get selected for the World Cup. Now, that might seem kind of strange motive. But I do believe the heart and soul of Australia has the capacity to lead the world here, to manage change, and to be creative in the way we do it. I'm also really interested in the underlying assumptions that we all have, that allow us to manage change. I've worked with a lot of farmers over the years, and I'm always fascinated with the assumptions that they bring to the table around creative land management. I'm intrigued. Where do you draw upon those assumptions? Where did they come from? Are they, you know, genetic? Is it just that's the way grandpa taught us how to land manage, so we're gonna do it? Or is, are we listening to the children around the table, that are drawing on these new education systems of old wisdom systems as well? So I mean, I'm, I'm intrigued in the storytelling that's associated with that. I've been fascinated in the way that farmers tell stories, and how they're realized into into action.
Anthony 22:19
Oh me too. You've given me the perfect segue too, because I actually wanted to come back to Damon before opening to the floor. So have your questions ready, because we'll come next. Damon that storytelling that Grant just mentioned, and the power of narrative, and creating a new narrative that that's not just sort of the symbolic, wishy washy stuff - it's actually fundamental to what can enable and empower us on this journey, no?
Damon 22:46
Yeah, I think, well, that our stories shape culture, and then the culture determines what thrives or dies. And I think a lot of us may not even be aware that we've been living in a collective story for about 500 years now, that's really seen us as separate and superior to nature. And we haven't lived like that for the majority of our existence. That's only a very new story. And look where it's taken us, so unless we address that underlying story, or the metaphor that we all live by, we're really not going to get through this. And I think often we talk about the shiny gadgets, and the tech and the EVS and the batteries and whatnot. But that's actually, that's not going to be enough to get us there, we really need that cultural shift about what we measure and see as our success, but also how we treat the living world. And again, I come back to what's happening in farming across the world is just such a beautiful and wonderful metaphor for what needs to happen through all sorts of areas and the momentum and the change that's happening in that space. I was actually speaking to a group today in America called SPUN that have found a way to map all the fungal networks in the soil to use it as a measuring tool to test the health of the soil and the amount of innovation and creativity that's going in there to actually honor and work with nature again, so that we can use that as a measuring tool, the health of the soil, that's when we start getting changed. So I really agree with with the gentleman just spoke then - we don't talk about that story piece often enough, and, and the collective story, what it means to be human, and what it means to interact with the living world around us.
Anthony 24:26
Thanks Damon. And of course, it's everything we're doing right here. So it's not just for the filmmakers of the world, either. It's it's in communities like this. It's funny, it's occurred to me for a while that in business circles, you've probably heard this saying - that culture eats strategy for breakfast. It's been a throwaway comment in in corporate life and in business life for decades. It's so funny that as a society we've sort of ignored that. Anyway, over to you guys.
Audience question 1 24:56
G'day, really loving this so far. My question is, what have you seen with the uptake of all this, all these inspiring strategies and this sort of mindset on approaching fixing the world, how have you seen that in your, you know, close by neighbors? Probably mostly targeted at Ian and Di. But yeah, for the rest of you, of course.
Di 25:22
I guess, within the farming community, it's varied. There's some amazing uptake in all sorts of parts of Australia and around the world. And there's other areas that, you know, perhaps still looking at it with a bit of skepticism. But certainly, there's a lot of science now coming together to support a lot of the findings of how soil health is progressing and making change. And when you look at what the parameters that Damon had up earlier with some of the - that we've overstepped the mark on a lot of those barriers, where we've, you know, biodiversity loss and ecosystem collapse and things like that - we just have to really take a good hard look at those things. And how we might be able to, you know, make changes to stop putting pressure on those systems. So I guess it's just all a learning journey for all of us to keep trying to figure out how to work that best. And working with First Nations people who've got that understanding from way, way back, and how we can integrate that with how we're operating as well.
Oral 26:27
What I've seen, as AJ said, I was in Amsterdam, 10 days ago, in the Netherlands. We as Australia are limited by the thinking of our politicians in many ways, right? Particularly. But also our businesses. So in many areas of innovation, and renewables particularly, we, as Australia, as a nation, as a first world nation, we lag way behind a lot of the European countries particularly. So they're the things that I don't think we've changed quickly enough on and with, and I tend to always be at loggerheads with farmers. And, you know, I love what Ian and Di are doing, but I always suggest that farmers never do enough, right. So there's two big industries that impact and affect our, our environment, particularly in this country, and particularly in this state. And it's agriculture and mining, right. And they have enormous impacts, those industries have enormous impact on our natural environment. And certainly our economy. In fact, we, they lead our economy, particularly the mining or the resources sector, for Australia, so so we've got to, in my view, there's a couple of things. From from a cultural perspective, if we're going to suggest or speak about things being indigenous led, and people need to, not enough people in this country - and I would suggest in this town even, and this is for the whole community - understand or know enough about our culture and ourselves and our collective history. So we need to understand - so in the Uluru statement, which I was a part of that gathering of indigenous leaders nationally, we asked for three things, right. The truth telling process, which is about telling the truth about what really happened in this in this country, particularly from our perspective. The second thing was about, you know, a voice to Parliament, so that we actually start to empower our voice, particularly, but we start to empower the truth telling around Australia's history, right, and us as Australians, and as a collective. And the third one was about treaty - developing, you know, treaties and treaty processes. So those things are important, because indigenous led initiatives, and I've always said this, and I believe this more now than ever, that, that non Aboriginal Australia has brought nothing that is sustainable to this country. Right. And yet, Indigenous Australia, First Nations peoples globally, alright, have the best sustainability models, particularly around nature, and the natural environment. So there is a significant contribution that Aboriginal people and in this town here Ballardong Noongars can actually make to the economy of the world and, and the local, regional, state, and international economy. So there's things that that Noongar and Aboriginal people know. And there's, there's a whole lot of stuff that we've lost as well, that we need support, and yes collaboration and unity for us to reconnect to that. But there's a lot of stuff that Aboriginal people know. And there's a lot of things that Aboriginal people can contribute to these conversations about what is needed. So I think that there's there's that issue about truth telling, there's issues about understanding that, you know - I've heard scientists, I've actually traveled the world and I've traveled around Australia many times, listening to lots and lots of very smart well informed, knowledgeable people speak about these types of issues. And I've heard that some of the - a couple of comments that have really stuck in my mind is around farming or that and it's a global issue. And I've heard chief scientists say that we have as humankind, we've got 60 harvests left on this earth right. Now we've heard about the importance of biodiversity in the ecology of the natural system. So the harvest issue is about not just about growing wheat, or sheep, or cattle or, or dairy products, or, or any other livestock or any other crop for that matter. It's about understanding that that the cropping system, and the agricultural systems, and us as humans, even collectively, are all part of nature. And we've got to understand nature, in a broader sense than just what we want to understand from our own personal economic perspective, and context. And whether you live in Beverley, or whether you live in Paris, all of these issues are consistent. So I think it's about educating ourselves, opening our minds, and understanding both on a macro level, and in a very micro level, that there are things and people that we can engage with, to actually help ourselves understand what it is that that Nature needs, and the change that we've been talking about needs. And we all can contribute to that.
Anthony 31:33
Thanks Oral, I mean bang, the conclusion right there. And that's the answer to your question is that there are people right here, right now in amongst our communities. And I guess, my journey of learning some of what Oral is talking about, has blown me away from First Nations around the country and the world for that matter, but actually being with them on country around Australia, in terms of just the level of sophistication, and it's everything they've been saying, but I couldn't hear it. And obviously, a lot of us are struggling with that. But if we can listen more, the sophistication of the knowledge system, as western science is finding it to be the most sophisticated knowledge system ever. I mean, this is and they are our neighbors - they are the people, they're here with us. And it's a hell of a gift that they're offering, which is amazing in itself, really, in many ways. Certainly, I felt that - to be offered and invited into spaces by First Nations here, but it doesn't stop there. So I've done a hundred and - I've just finished the 124th podcast episode with as it happens, the mentor to Di and Ian, Jane, who I finally met in South Australia recently. I had to go weekly, and even then I feel like there should be 10 other podcasts at least, because the stories are everywhere. And you talk about the politics Oral. One of them recently, I'm in the seat of Curtin down in Perth, so I was one of the seats that elected an independent woman to Parliament in a historically safe Liberal [Party] seat. And I want to firstly say it doesn't matter who you vote for, particularly, what I'm more interested in is that out of that phenomenon, and what we saw over East, community was engaged - and everybody says this - community was engaged in the process more than ever. That is good for all of us hands down. And then the fact that we're getting a representational thrust at some scale at our federal parliament, is an amazing story in itself. They're our neighbors. We were part of that. So yeah, it's everywhere - in fact, in the Leederville screening we did where Claire and I met, and what brought me here tonight, I was able to point to that person, that person, that person, and Oral was one of them, these guys were on the panel as well, doing extraordinary stuff. And I'm sure, in fact, I know from some of the conversations I've had already here tonight, that there are cases amongst you here tonight that are practicing at some scale and in some part of the journey, but that are at it as well. So yeah, big exclamation mark on that. Anyone else?
Audience question 2 34:03
How are we going to crack through the arrogance of European people so that we can accept the knowledge of the indigenous people on every continent? That's the challenge.
Ian 34:17
I think we can - I look at it in our situation is, we can just start doing our own example, on on what we do. And if we can sit back - you know when Di and I looked at our farming module, or what we were doing, and we realized, you know, farming gets caught up in this big machine that just seems to roll on. And all this advice is coming in and we follow these things. And how can we stop that because it's a whole financial system that actually runs what what we do. And I think by just sitting back and listening, taking that step back and being able to just set the example yourself of what you're doing, you know, sit back and say how can we incorporate these things, and look at your culture of what you're actually trying to achieve there, you know, maybe put the culture back in agriculture. And, and look at it a completely different way of how you view the land and the landscape. And, you know, we can look at it, you know, there's no ownership of land, you know, we're just custodians of that land like everyone else, and how we want to leave that land and what we can do in all ways to actually bring it back to more natural processes. Why all this is happening around and where it gets caught up, especially in cropping systems, you've got all this massive machinery, which we've all got, to do all these things, and it just all gets lost, and how you can bring more natural systems back into that and, and tap into some of the wisdom of the people that that have been on this country a lot longer than us. And, you know, we're new kids on the block.
Anthony 34:38
It's worth saying just for a moment, it's worth saying that you say that Ian in the context of using that big machinery, but in an entirely different way. So just not from a viewpoint of ditching it, you're actually integrating it, which is
Ian 36:16
yeah, we do, we spend a lot of time changing machinery, and you can get caught up and locked in that little cab, and you just go for it. And you're ripping up hundreds of hundreds of acres a day. And you've got to get out of that and think what's actually happening. So we look at saying, How can we use the efficiency of that, because the world is not just going to stop using that, but how can we actually change the uses of these things to get some more right desired outcomes? And we've all got a long way to go. But if we all sit back and listen and really question what we do, some of the outcomes are actually remarkable.
Grant 36:59
I might like to add on that topic. You know, the point that you raised around ignorance. On an educational level, and I'll speak at, you know, Western Australia's sandstone University UWA, it's been a deep argument about how do you decolonize a university? Or indeed how do you indigenize a university? And I think Oral's right. And I think that's a complex set of questions. And there's a set of processes in there that we've got to be honest, and brave, to build confidence around the table. To hear the deep truths about how we do that. Now, decolonization has not worked in Australia, right? There's been little achievements on that front. If you look across the colonial world, there's been little improvement. Right? But to indigenize institutions, conversations, action, is very different. And I think it goes back to the lady's comment earlier, move over, let's create the space for indigenous discussion. Truth telling, as Oral suggested, knowledge sharing. And I think that then goes into the great saying of Karen Martin, indigenous scholar from New South Wales, you know, this idea of knowing, being and doing. Now, that's - those three pillars of exchange, and dealing with change is really important. But I think it is - our people are learning now it is about indigenizing the spaces that we occupy, and UWA is dealing with that. How can you indigenize an engineering curriculum? How can you indigenize a plant science curriculum and degree at UWA? How does the design faculty indigenize its curriculum? How does it allow a safe cultural environment for indigenous design professors to teach that challenge? And I think they're big challenges. But I think we've got to as Oral says, We got to build confidence, and we got to do it at an alarming rate. I mean, you know, there's no excuses now at universities levels, that they're not fulfilling their indigenous employment strategies. We need indigenous botanical professors sorry. We need indigenous engineering professors. They're there. I've seen the students, indigenous students graduate from those faculties. Right? They're off doing more important work to some degree. But eventually, I think they're going to come back to those educational institutions and change the curriculum. Yeah. And I think that'll that'll give some good results. I hope that that helps.
Oral 40:30
Well, that's I think that's part of the truth telling, because I think I've certainly got family members who have had their DNA testing. And I can tell you that there are 1000s of names that come up on indigenous peoples Aboriginal peoples DNA test, and I'm telling you that 90% of those names are non Indigenous. So part of the truth telling is actually understanding that if your family has been here for more than five generations, then I'm guessing that you've got an Aboriginal blood in your bloodlines. So knowing our history, and certainly we, our history tells us that York was settled in 1832. I believe. 1831? Yep, two years after Perth. So the story of the convicts, which is some of you who have been here, and are descendants of convicts, and other more gentrified bloodlines. But certainly the convicts story is very interesting, because the convicts were rejects of the English population and community that came out here. And of course, when they were released from their prison terms, they were sent forth to multiply and grow the colony. And so put yourselves - the majority of them were men. So when they traveled out here to York, or Beverley or this country, as it was previous to these towns, who do you think they connected with? They connected with Noongar people and Aboriginal people. So these are, these are some of the facts that I see. You know, and there's, there's a couple of us in this room here who are highly engaged Aboriginal people. Your question about non Indigenous European arrogance is a real problem of the ego of individuals and the collective. Contrary to that having grown or expanded over the 190 odd years that this place has been Australia or WA, or, or York or Beverley, Aboriginal and Noongar specific leadership and spirits were strong. So let me give you an example. My mom is 92. Her mom lived to her early 90s. And her mom lived to her 90s. So when I talked to my mom about her life and her knowledge of language or culture or place, she has a timeline of knowledge that takes her back 270 years. Do you understand that? So, so when I stand up here, and I speak my language, and I speak about places that I know, because my dad died at 49 in 1977, he is my absolute hero. And you know what he died off at 49? He died of a broken spirit. Because he was told that, as a great footballer, we love you during the footy season. But you can't live in our town, you can't join our bowling club. And there are, you know, Ronnie's dad, who was my older brother from Brookton died, just in the last, you know, passed away in these last few months. He was the last senior Maguire in our bloodline. So my point here is that there is enormous knowledge. So whether you want to be arrogant about it, there are some facts about what actually is. And so the truth about what is, is unfortunately, overrun by what we believe or what we think. And so people sort of underestimate that Aboriginal people in this town or in this region, and certainly in this country, and indigenous peoples globally, are empowering. We are self empowering ourselves. And there are people in your midst - Aboriginal people, and I like to see myself as one of them. I know that Ronnie is and I know that Noel is. So the three of us who are here tonight, are empowered Aboriginal men who actually know and certainly not perturbed by the arrogance and the ego of non Aboriginal people. Because we are engaged, we are educated, and we are doing things and for those of you that don't know who I am or what I'm doing, the property that you drive - you drive through our property every time you drive over the Dale bridge. The trees there, which, unfortunately, it's not a it's not a great front, because the ILC and the FPC, manage a sandalwood plantation there, that is not great. But putting that aside, the real magic on our property that these guys have all been to, is down the back end of our farm. And we had 54 Noongar people there, collecting wattleseed, over Christmas last year. And we all know hot the Christmas period was. Ronnie was one of them, he was there with us. So what I'm saying is we are empowering ourselves around this very stuff that you watch tonight. Our knowledge is solid, and it's strong, and it's real. And the arrogance of telling us that, that we can't or we're not or we or we won't, is lost on people like myself, because we can actually forge our way and grow the strengths that we need to actually have a say in the things that are important. And our knowledge. And the knowledge that we hold is very strong within our families and our bloodlines and our clans, that that non Aboriginal people may not see see or think or believe, or respect. So the point is that Aboriginal people have a very strong contribution to be made. It needs to be respected. And all I'm saying is that the arrogance of leaders - we already have 75% of the Australian landmass is in the hands of Aboriginal people already. We need to unlock that, because that's a massive asset that, unfortunately, is held by non Aboriginal people because of the caveats, and the economic restrictions that that it locks up for us. So we're very powerful. We know that and we need people to also understand and respect that because that's a really important transition between, you know, this issue of disadvantage and real empowerment.
Anthony 47:06
Thanks, Oral. I know there's a big conversation to go on with from that takeoff point too where you said about the the ability to unleash the potential on those landscapes that can't move ahead. Yeah, please. Next one. Noel there.
Audience question 3 (Noel) 47:20
I just want to go to the movie, or documentary we saw earlier. And at the start of that documentary, there's a very powerful diagram, Damon, that you refer to. And what struck me apart from the challenging aspects, I guess, from an optimistic perspective, as a nation, and as a, I suppose, as a world, we made a significant change, as you refer to, to the ozone. So a question - how soon or how long maybe, in your mind's, would it take for us to sort of tackle all those other segments in that, in that pie, that are kind of all out of whack? If we, you know, band together. And I guess that's what you're trying to achieve here with a sort of a, you know, raising the church, if I could call it that, of, you know, people getting their heads around what we're trying to do together? And do we do we just start with certain segments? Or do we have to take this as a, as a whole and try and work on it? That's one part of the question. And the second question is, what you know, what is the true cost that we need to be thinking about? If we could, might be too hard to answer that question.
Anthony 48:16
I love that, Noel. First question is, how do we do everything and save the world? And there's another question! ... Anyway. We'll see how we go. I know. I know what I'd say. But I reckon Damon might say similar things so over to you mate.
Damon 49:09
Yeah, so I think it's certainly not a linear process. I think sometimes we get caught in a linear mindset. And the system, as we know, is deeply complex and intertwined. And so I think the positive there is that if we do start to take action on one of those boundaries, it does have a very positive impact on other boundaries. So if we start to protect that habitat and plant more mangroves, which holds huge amounts of carbon, restore some of those forests, obviously, that boundary starts to come in, but it's also creating habitats for those wildlife. So that boundary starts to come in. And we're also sequestering carbon and storing it in that biomass. So the climate change boundary starts to come in. So it really is trying to see these solutions in a much more holistic manner. And sometimes we get caught in this sort of carbon tunnel syndrome in Australia or just looking at emissions. And we really don't look at the land and the soil and the water cycles of the planet and the habitat, so we really have to approach this in a much more holistic way than we have been. And see that our architecture of our system, the engine of our economy, is causing all these things. It's not just climate change, it's having all this deleterious impact across the board. So we need to start shifting those processes in all those industries, and start to approach these things in a different way. So in terms of the timescale, I think we have to be very honest with how much damage we have done in a very short amount of time. And as we know, that it's a lot easier to knock things down than to build them up. So this is going to be a multi generational approach if we're going to pull this off. But I often like to think of historians, in a few 100 years from now, looking back to this moment, and thinking, Well, you know, there were people that amidst the chaos and extinctions and the misinformation and all the nihilism, there were groups of people that started to step away from that and plant the seeds of a thriving, regenerative future. So I think that's incumbent on all of us to be alive in this moment to start planting those seeds for the sake of those future generations.
Anthony 51:05
Thanks, Damon. Now we have clocked up time. But - you want another question? Alright, last one. And then yeah, if you guys want to have a last comment, and we'll wind it up.
Audience question 4 51:14
For the couple, with a large farm up there, how long did it take you to go from where you started to where you have a nice pond in the middle, and all that?
Di 51:24
I think on that property was a matter of about four or five years, it would have been. And I think it was just a case of rebuilding that capacity of the soil, to one, infiltrate water, but also have the microbial system functioning so that the waters that came in, were handled appropriately. So the salts, which typically rise in the soil profile, were actually held down by microbes, dealing with things appropriately and filtering the water, I guess, as it went through the soil profile, and then able to sit on top of the saltwater underneath, which was heavier. So the fresh water is able to sit on top.
Ian 52:06
But what we are finding is actually how quick - Oral made a comment there that, you know, we need nature but nature, you know, can get along well without us and what never ceases to amaze me is just how quick things can repair. So the minute you start to back off, and look at things a different way and do things a few different ways, just how quick it comes back. And the native grasses that are coming back. And just the whole habitat that comes back. And if we stop actually disrupting a lot of that even in the cropping systems that are happening, just how quick that regeneration happens. You know, we look at it, you know what, what changed our mind is, you know, Di and I spent a lot of years in the Kimberley. And we're at the age where a lot of elders there, you know, we were in our early 20s, and they were in their late 80s. And we were able to really sat us back to look and see, we're looking at things differently landscape management a lot differently. So that's when we came back into agriculture, we could - back down into the farming systems - we could think, well, we've got to do this differently. And we can contribute our bit from what we've learned, as a white fella to say, we can get into these agriculture systems, but let's just try and start. And we've made a lot of mistakes. But let's try and start to implement some of these things, and see what the outcome is. And the outcome for us has been amazing, you know, the landscape's grown, it's, it's replenished. And it's been very good for us. And, you know, we're just looking at how we can actually continue to learn and actually share that with others to try and do our bit of trying to do the right thing.
Audience question 4 53:51
Do you use less chemicals now as well?
Ian 53:54
Yeah we use a lot less. And, and that's why it's been. It's funny how intuitive it is and how it all works. And yeah, a lot less, you know, I'd probably think we're probably about a third to what's commonly used around the place. And we've taken on a lot a lot of places that have been degraded, and we probably been taking on a place virtually every year. And yeah, how quick we can actually change those back and transition them back to a more more natural system. We'd probably have, and it's not enough, you know, over our landscape, we'd have 15-18,000 acres of natural Bush lands and and we intend to, to actually increase that and get more diversity. So we actually have a bit more like a mosaic effect across that whole landscape rather than just a monoculture happening right through it. So, you know, we just forever seeking knowledge to actually bring into these farming systems where we can actually improve it. And, you know, we're open to learn all the time.
Di 55:03
And I think that's where it comes down to that future together, collaborating, cooperating, and the creativity that was mentioned before, of how we can do things, how we, you know, we've got a lot to learn about this landscape and what its potential is, what it was. That's where we need to all work together along that to optimize that diversity. And, you know, not just producing the foods that we're familiar with as white people. There's so many other rich food sources out there, which we probably do a heck of a lot better with our health if we had access to at a greater level. So I think that's where the collaboration and cooperation comes together for the future. And that's what we're wanting to learn more going forward.
Audience question 4 55:44
So maximum profitability is no longer the goal?
Ian 55:48
Oh absolutely not. That's last on my priority going into a new season, every every year. My my first priority is actually my people and the people involved in our, in our farming system, the people around us and our landscape systems. What profit we make, at the end of the day, I don't really look at. Looking in hindsight, that actually what comes around is we do actually pretty well, but, you know, one year can be up and next year can be down. But that is not our focus of how we farm. I know if we look after our environment, we try and do the right thing, do the best thing, the money will take care of itself at the end of the day. And it's not our focus at all.
Anthony 56:36
I feel like that's a part that perhaps hasn't come up when we talked about the boundaries before Noel, the social part that was in the film. And the reinvigoration of regional communities. I mean, I've heard coal communities even in Queensland talk about wanting to be more like Atherton you know, with a bustling Main Street again. And that applies to so many towns that we know and love around the country, doesn't it? And I know it's a big part of the vision that you guys hold, and I imagine you too Grant with your work.
Oral 57:03
As I said, early, I was in Amsterdam, and one of the things that actually amazed me with their agricultural system over there or systems is, and I didn't know this, so I learned this while I was there, that they've got these satellite cities, right, there is six of them, and I don't know the other four, but there's Amsterdam and Rotterdam, right? Further south. But they have in an area that's way smaller than our wheat belt, it's probably smaller than the central Wheatbelt, they have 6 million people living there. So their, their agricultural system is highly lucrative. And their farmers operate on no bigger than 80, I think is about the average hectare's. And so their innovation and their diverse revenue streams on the small relatively for us over here relatively tiny properties is quite enormous. And they have things like the community gardens, but they also have, you know, they self produce a lot of their dairy products for those that are running cattle, and so on and so on. So I think they're really important. There's lots of things that we can do on our land, that I think we as a whole community, and particularly Wadjulla [white fella] farmers were doing way better in the 50s 60s, and probably the 70s. When towns like Beverley, and certainly when I grew up as a, you know, as a kid, and, and as a footballer, you know, I used to come to these places and loved, you know, being a part of and watching the football, for example. And we know that sporting clubs are key parts of our towns. But all these towns in our Wheatbelt area, were thriving communities that had so much functionality in so many areas, and the farmers and the farming industry, the agricultural sector was highly productive, and it was highly efficient. And it had a lot of engagement had lots of workers on farms, you know, the statistics as they are now there are - the landmass is still the same in terms of the land being farmed, but there are fewer land owners and land holders. So these are some of the issues around why I think things have diminished. And I think getting back to, you know, that holistic system where the biodiversity and the productivity, you know, looking after the soil, less chemicals, you know, more nature based activities around land management, and farming. And obviously, lots of people, lots of people involved - I mean many of our old people were highly engaged in the farming community. When a lot of these places were being set, a lot of the farms were being set up as aboriginal people. In fact, we provided most of the labor and it was free. So I think that that's an aspiration that I see where, you know, communities. And when farming, particularly for us out here in these communities becomes productive and functional again, so will our towns and our, and our society. So I think that's a, that's a dream that, you know, we should hold on to, and be more open to being inclusive about who is a part of our social and community entities and functions within towns like Beverley.
Anthony 1:00:31
I want to throw to you Grant in case you do feel like having a last comment before we close up?
Grant 1:00:35
I just like to encourage everyone to go back and see the film again. I mean, Damon's done an incredible job in there. And I think we've only touched on a certain amount tonight, I would encourage everybody to go back to the Haggerty's YouTubes because there's, there's a lot in that. I mean, for example, this idea of social entrepreneurialship is quite extraordinary in the regeneration game. There's an intelligence here, that I've mentioned before, but it's incredibly creative. But I think that offers so many other opportunities, you know, in this big game that we've been debating and talking about tonight. Ian talks about other economies, and just talks about how lucrative these economies can be. Oral has mentioned the same in the way that he's managing his farm. So I would just encourage everyone to, you know, try to understand this holistic picture, because sometimes we can run down rabbit warrens and get caught, you know, and the best way is to you know, play the macro and the micro, like a like a violin in some ways. Yeah.
Anthony 1:01:00
That's a nice metaphor. Thank you. And, you know, I heard you talk Oral about having dozens of people, you know, on country harvesting, and I know that you guys are bringing people back into - so you guys are already doing that. Bringing people back on to country. It can be done. It is being done. We could do more of it. It's a great spot to end on. I want to thank you all. Please give our panel a warm hand for being with us tonight. Damon of course the filmmaker, Oral, Di, Ian, and Grant. Thank you, Claire, for bringing it together. Thank you very much for being here. My name is Anthony James from The RegenNarration Podcast. I'm going to channel my best Damon to close - go forth and regenerate. See ya next time.
Anthony 1:02:52
That was Oral McGuire, Di and Ian Haggerty, Grant Revell and Damon Gameau - and young Hamish on soundcheck at the top. For more on Regenerating Australia, and to organize your own screening, including in schools with accompanying resource kits, see the links in the show notes. To hear more of Di and Ian with another unique lineup out at their place, tune into episode 142. And if you're in or near Brisbane in late March, join me for a live podcast conversation at the World Science Festival. You'll find me at 10am on March 26, talking regenerating country with brilliant First Nations guests, Jacob Burch and Zena Cumpston. The link for that is also in the show notes.
Anthony 1:03:42
Thanks very much for your many messages and tributes after last week's episode with Carol Sanford. Love is well and truly in the air. And on that note, thanks as always to the generous supporters who've helped make this episode possible. If you too value what you hear, please consider joining this community of supporting listeners so we can keep the podcast going. Just head to the website via the show notes regennarration.com/support. Thanks again. And as always, if you think of someone who might enjoy this episode, please do go ahead and share it with them. The music you're hearing is Regeneration by Amelia Barden off the soundtrack to Regenerating Australia. My name is Anthony James. Thanks for listening.
Find more:
Regenerating Australia – community film screenings are available.
To hear more of Di & Ian Haggerty, with another unique line up out at their place, tune into episode 142.
Join me at Regenerating Country, a live podcast conversation at the World Science Festival Brisbane.
Music:
Regeneration, composed by Amelia Barden, from the soundtrack of the film Regenerating Australia, available for community screenings now.