136. Convergence
Terry & Pam McCosker on the story behind the greatest regen ag movement in Australia
Dr Terry McCosker OAM is the legendary co-founder of RCS Australia. Charles Massy credits RCS as being behind the greatest regenerative agriculture movement in Australia. And throughout its pioneering decades, Pam McCosker has been the unheralded lynch pin. Terry makes no secret of it. Nor did Charles when he wrote in his best-selling Call of the Reed Warbler: “When I look back over the rise of regenerative agriculture in Australia, I see at the forefront Terry and Pam McCosker and their RCS organisation. Today it remains a world leader in the field.”
But almost incredibly, this is the first time Pam has ever appeared in media. Well, on the cusp of their 50th wedding anniversary next year, and with the zeitgeist coming in a rush to meet their trailblazing work, now seemed like a good time to speak with them together.
Terry and Pam at home just after this conversation (pic: Anthony James).
“I guess one of the great learnings in my life is that it’s not about agriculture, and it’s not about the land, it’s all about people. And that when we get the people right, everything else works. And when the people are right, they start to heal the land, the land heals the people, and we’re in a beautiful cycle then of healing everything.”
This conversation was recorded at their home in Yeppoon, Central Queensland, soon after sharing in the extraordinary Convergence event in Brisbane that marked the 30th anniversary of RCS. We debrief on that here, including on some of the major flashpoints emerging right now, and contemplate what might come next. All interspersed in this intimate, at times heart-breaking, and often downright entertaining journey into their life together – their personal convergence - a life forged through unfathomable loss, ultimate successes, and a still deepening call towards the heart of it all.
Here’s a rough timeline of our conversation:
4m – on home, Convergence, and their life together, family, the organisation and broader movement
29m - back to Convergence
36m – on Terry’s session at Convergence
46m – some of the big breakthroughs coming on, and what Terry’s role might be from here
58m – their spiritual journey
68m - where to from here?
This conversation was recorded at the home of Terry and Pam McCosker, just outside of Yeppoon, Queensland, on 3 August 2022.
Click on the photos below for full view, and hover over them for descriptions (pics in Yeppoon by Anthony James, and from the Convergence conference by Sally Batt Photography - see more photos by Sally here).
I’ll post a few more personal photos from the Convergence event on Patreon for subscribers.
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Please note this transcript isn’t perfect, but hopefully serves to provide greater access to these conversations for those who need or like to read.
SPEAKERS
Anthony James (host), Pam McCosker, Terry McCosker
Anthony 00:00
You're with The RegenNarration, exploring how communities are changing the systems and stories we live by. It's independent media, free of ads and freely available thanks to the support of listeners like you. So a special thanks this week to Matthew Labattaglia for becoming a treasured subscriber and to my broader Italian contingent of support in the form of the Curcio's. Thanks, Adam and Stacy for increasing your monthly contribution. It seems synchronous and fitting to be thanking you in this episode. If you too sense something worthwhile in all this, please consider joining Matthew, Adam and Stacey and a great community of supporting listeners with as little as $3 a month or whatever amount you can and want to contribute. You get all sorts of benefits, including, of course, continuing to receive the podcast now with transcripts every week - just head to the website via the show notes. regennarration.com/support. Thanks a lot.
Terry 00:57
There wasn't a person in that room that couldn't resonate with some or all of those stories, and particularly the mental health aspect. And I know that there are people sitting in that room that I know have dealt with enormous mental health issues over a long period of time. And they were able to resonate with that. And I guess one of the greatest learnings of my life is that it's not about agriculture, and it's not about the land, it's all about people. And that when we get the people right, everything else works. And when the people are right, they start to heal the land, the land heals the people, and we're in a beautiful cycle then of healing everything.
Anthony 01:49
G'day, my name's Anthony James. This is The RegenNarration and that was Dr. Terry McCosker OAM. Terry's the legendary co founder of RCS Australia. Charles Massy credits RCS as being behind the greatest regenerative agriculture movement in Australia. And throughout its pioneering decades, Pam McCosker has been the unheralded linchpin. Terry makes no secret of it. Nor did Charles when he wrote in his best selling Call of the Reed Warbler - 'When I look back over the rise of regenerative agriculture in Australia, I see at the forefront, Terry and Pam McCosker and their RCS organization. Today it remains a world leader in the field.' But almost incredibly, I'm told this is the first time Pam has ever appeared in media. Well on the cusp of their 50th wedding anniversary next year, and with the zeitgeist coming in a rush to meet their trailblazing work, now seemed like a good time to speak with them together. This conversation was recorded a little over a month ago at their home in Yeppoon, Central Queensland. What a privilege it was to get together there soon after sharing in the extraordinary Convergence event in Brisbane, that marked the 30th anniversary of RCS. We debrief on that here, including on some of the major flashpoints emerging right now, and contemplate what might come next. All interspersed in this intimate, at times heartbreaking, and often downright entertaining journey into their life together. A life forged through unfathomable loss, ultimate successes, and a still deepening call towards the heart of it all. So join us in some dappled Queensland shade. For more of the story behind the story of the greatest regen ag movement in Australia.
Anthony 03:54
Terry and Pam, what a terrific thing it is to be sitting at your place. I'm so glad we could do this before I leave in a couple of days. Thanks for joining me.
Terry 04:02
Thank you for being here.
Pam 04:03
Yes, absolutely. Lovely to have you here.
Anthony 04:06
Being here does make me remember, Terry, when we first spoke for the podcast in Episode 67, that you talked about the vision for this place and how you came to be here. Do you still have that vision written down? Do you keep those things?
Pam 04:21
Actually, it's funny you should say that I was cleaning up during our COVID break. You know, we had to shut down. And one of the things that I did find was a plus minus interesting of actually deciding between this place and another block of land that we had and we did it with the girls. And when I look back on it, it was it was so right it ticked all the boxes that we had as the interesting and the pluses and the minuses when we compared it to the other were quite small. So that reinforced it for me. At least
Anthony 04:58
you've still got that?
Pam 04:59
I have!
Anthony 05:00
That's brilliant. I wondered too, do have any of that sort of stuff with regards to RCS journey, even going right back to the beginning is that that sort of stuff around as well.
Pam 05:10
I'm a bit of a hoarder
Anthony 05:12
So it's likely?
Pam 05:13
Yeah. So we were doing a shed clean out of our old files. Last year before we did the shed up. And one of the, and we kept on a lot of our archives there. And I had been responsible for starting the archive business before I retired and, and then we came upon a lot of the old files that we had client files, school files, and, and one of the things that we did make sure we kept was the copies of, particularly the school files, everyone who had attended the comments and some of those earlier clients and works that we did. And so yes, it was quite interesting.
Anthony 05:57
Oh, yeah, super interesting.
Terry 05:58
We still have the original vision, though, when we started RCS. And that's still what we use today. And there's only a few words have changed in over 30 years.
Anthony 06:06
Is that right? Can you recite it for us here?
Terry 06:09
I can. So it's for the people on the land to be healthy, to create wealth forever from the land, from pastures that are maintenance free and highly productive with animals that are maintenance free and highly productive. And in the cropping industries in soils that adding carbon and are healthy, and don't require a whole lot of inputs to keep them productive. And really to be able to do that for the next one to 5000 years.
Anthony 06:36
Well, that's the perfect segue really, isn't it to the conference. Let's use that as our take off point convergence. And I say it's the perfect segue because it really is what you just articulated speaks to such a powerful legacy that was celebrated in its nominally 30th anniversary, but because of COVID delays, it was its 32nd. I wonder coming out of it now, what are we sort of two weeks after its occurred? How's it circulating within you both at this point, with a bit of reflection in tow? What's the essence of it that you're carrying with you? Pam, perhaps you first.
Pam 07:08
For me, it was a connection with people again, I it was just so empowering to go back. And to actually appreciate that we have had the influence on people we've been part of their lives when they started their journey with us at whatever course they began at, and those that have continued or those that have come along, and we've made friends. And I think, for me, it was that reconnection and just that gut feeling that was pretty special.
Anthony 07:44
There may not have been, but I wonder if there was a particular moment that crystallized it for you, where you just sort of caught yourself going wow?
Pam 07:51
I think perhaps it was coming into the room on Saturday morning, just looking around at up to 600 people in the room. And looking at faces and seeing faces, oh I must make sure I catch up with them today. I know there were quite a few that I missed, but I tried so much just to you know, just to say hello, give them a hug, see how they're going? And and I think then it was like, wow, these people have been some have been clients for 30 plus years. And I thought, how lucky are we
Anthony 08:29
Beautiful. Terry?
Terry 08:30
I think the lasting thing really was the energy at lots of different levels. There was energy there. And the connection of that energy is probably my biggest takeaway and impression of it. And I think also, probably one of the consistent messages that's been coming back since then, is that what it did was create hope and provided hope for people that from all walks of life, that were beginning to wonder, is there any hope. And that was an outcome that we were wanted was to make sure that there was solutions, and there was hope. And and I guess that's probably, you know, to, to know that it achieved that for a lot of people is, there's a great sense of relief in a way and that it actually worked.
Anthony 09:22
Because there were people from all walks, as you say. And they were obviously a lot of people, as you said, Pam in the community if you like, amongst the 7000 or so graduates and their families and so forth. But yes, there were also a lot of people from the straw polls I did at the outset that weren't embedded in that - that were there to learn and hopefully pick up how to become part of the broader journey. And yes, we've heard a bit from people like that how it's landed in the way you described Terry, but also how it's landed - I don't know overwhelming is not quite the word, but it certainly gave them plenty to process. Perhaps that's the way to put it. And particularly we've heard of some young folk who've since got together and organized. And Kristy Stewart, who perhaps will have come out on this podcast, by the time this goes out, is amongst it and helping them organize. But that's something of what you picked up too? That there was a lot to feel, I guess it's the energy at different levels that you're talking about.
Terry 10:19
Yeah, and that connection, people from, as you say, all walks of life, teachers, people from the medical profession, veterinary profession, the NRM groups from all around Australia. And just lots and lots of people - and banks - just a real eclectic group, but very interesting group for to come together to really look at kind of what's regeneration about? And is it is it starting to converge and come together. And I guess that was something else that was really exciting for me was just to see the overlap. And the convergence, it really did converge. And that meant that the theme was right. And you could just feel it over time, the overlapping of, as different speakers mentioned different things. But, but so many people mentioned the same things. From diff totally different perspectives, and for different reasons. You know, one of those that came through loud and clear was stewardship, and really the need for us to focus on being stewards of our land, rather than think that we are owners of it. And, and the challenge to our colonial thinking, you know, focusing on stewardship, rather than a colonial approach to ownership, I think came through from lots and lots of different speakers. And that's sort of a good example of the convergence that occurred.
Anthony 11:50
No, it really was, wasn't it, it was such a powerful theme and, and echoed themes that you have talked about to over the journey, whereby that's got to be your first port of call. And when you're talking about profitability or other outcomes, that they flow from stewardship. That's been your experience. But clearly, then it's been, like other people are believing that - is that, I guess, is that part of the shift that's come to meet you and RCS, do you think over the 30 years, it's, where we're meeting at this level?
Terry 12:22
I think there's definitely a meeting at lots of levels at the moment. And I think, actually, that's one of the good things from out of the COVID experience. I think so many people now have started to rethink, where's our planet headed? Where's our lives headed? What just happened to us? What's happened to some of our freedoms? You know, what's happening to our health? And a lot of people now are starting to question and think about, where do we go? And I think that's, that's also converging. From a health aspect, right through to the quality of food, and how do we access better quality food. And you can see that now, the market starting to demand and source food from regenerative farms, which means there's a pool from consumers for that. So it's very early days, but it is starting to gain traction at many, many different level.
Anthony 13:23
We'll expand more on that. But, Pam, I'm wondering with that in mind, what the journey has been like for you. So I wonder as the person behind the scenes, if you like, since the beginning, and riding the waves in those 30 plus years? What your sense of the changes. Do you recall back then, for example, feeling isolated or marginal with what you guys were trying to do? Or have you felt then and now an in between? How's it been for you in that way?
Pam 13:56
I don't think I've ever felt that way. Myself. Personally. Terry did a lot of the the bigger picture stuff. And but I think, I think for the journey. It's been a very challenging one. In many ways. We've certainly had our ups and downs, sometimes more downs and ups, though, I think it was always our belief that what we're doing was the right thing, when we started, it was like, we had this idea, let's go. And it wasn't an idea. We had people we had something constructive, but we had nothing to lose at all at the beginning. And I think as a result of that, that we couldn't have anything taken away from us because we'd been there. In all sorts of ways. So I think that was a big thing for us. Well, we've, we've had the worst, what's the best and we're very fortunate that we have got that now
Anthony 15:00
Terry did share a lot of that story at the outset when we spoke for the podcast first. And indeed, that led to our first communication when you reached out afterwards, which I've never forgotten.
Pam 15:11
Thank you.
Anthony 15:12
Yeah. But I'm wondering here now, Pam, I guess, in a way, the question that's indicative of what I'm wondering is, how you came to the vows You both made back at the time of Shaun's death, and overwhelming challenge early days in the Northern Territory, where you vowed not to blame each other. And Terry vowed Shaun's life wouldn't be in vain. And that set him on a path that Terry's talked about as being not the best person to work for, for a while, just so charged, that you also vowed not to blame each other for what had happened. And I wonder, where did that come from in you? It seems such an extraordinary thing that you managed,
Pam 15:57
I think, as a mother, you, you just have to always look for the best particularly because the day Shaun died was the day that Kelly should have been born. I had lighting inside me. And I think Kelly was our Savior. We had her we could cuddle her, we could touch her, we had a baby and who needed us. And I personally feel that her needs and creating our love for her. She's always been very special. They're all very special. But Kelly helped us through that. And once you become a mother, you're always a mother. And and I think I was very busy being a mother then in those early days, because we had the three girls fairly quickly. And I think you just realized that the goodness of babies, you know they're
Anthony 16:57
It's a miracle!
Pam 16:58
They are a miracle! And we had that blessing of another miracle. So yeah, that's how we got through.
Anthony 17:05
And your connection. When did it begin? I don't think I asked that bit. How did you meet?
Pam 17:12
Surprisingly, it was at we were both boarding at Methodist boarding houses were both country kids, when we're studying in Brisbane was the boys and girls no co ed in those days. And none of us had any money. So our social activities were always together. And Sunday night, we had to or it was encouraged for us to go into the Albert Street Methodist Church, and then they would have a happy hour afterward. Happy hour was coffee, tea. And a get together with the boys. And Terry and I had been friends that had been dating different people previous to that. And at the time, about halfway through the second year was, you know, nothing was happening. And oh, there's a guy. He's got a car. Oh. You actually had three cards at the time. None of them particularly worked. I think they had to hold on the doors before they went round corners. But anyway, and then I thought I'm going to get a call. Anyway, being Terry the next week, I didn't get a call. I though oh, this isn't as good as I thought. And then next week, I got a call to say, you know, we'll go out. But in the meantime, we'd been to CMF. But being Terry only tells you so much. So I didn't realize that was going to happen then. I thought I had to find out the next one. I thought we're right then. So yeah, so I think that was it. And then we had some time in Brisbane where we were were studying and then I went out in the country to teach and he'd pop up and in that first year, and after a couple of years, we were both very young, I decided that it's time to go overseas for 12 months. And I was 21. So it's sort of rite of passage, we had to do two years bond and then we did the 12 months overseas.
Anthony 19:15
Teaching?
Pam 19:16
No nannying and, and doing all sorts of different things and working on a mushroom farm on the Isle of Man, which is where my grandfather came from.
Anthony 19:26
Oh, wow. And you knew that at the time?
Pam 19:29
Yeah. And, and then when I came back, I thought, Well, nothing's happening here or we hadn't been in touch and I didn't look to get in touch. And Terry's mother actually found out I was back and she had a quiet word in his ear and said, Maybe I think you should go and get in touch with Pam again. Saw each other that weekend and we were engaged and that was it.
Anthony 19:55
Really? Wow!
Terry 19:57
But ... the interesting thing was when she came back, she was already engaged to somebody else. And so when I did the traditional thing and asked Pam's father for her hand, his first comment was, you know, she's already engaged, don't you?
Anthony 20:14
Oh, heartbreaker
Terry 20:18
And so I said, Yeah, I know. She's gonna break up.
Anthony 20:26
The power of your visions, Terry. And your belief, right from the get go.
Terry 20:30
But it gets even better. We then had a very short engagement. So we got engaged at Easter, when we met up for the first time after 18 months or so. And then we're getting married in August, we had to fit into the school holidays, because Pam was back teaching, and we shacked up for those three months, which was, you know, something that was pretty risque back then. You're talking 50 odd years ago, and I came home one afternoon, and there's another guy in the kitchen. And Pam said, this is Gavin. And he's just come to ask me to marry him. And this is not the guy that she was engaged to
Anthony 21:10
Got options Pam?
Terry 21:12
Well, Gavin was pretty aggressive, and serious, and so, you know the bit in the church ceremony where they say, speak now forever hold your peace. We actually asked the Minister to take that out, because we actually expected Gavin to turn up at the ceremony and interrupt it, so we left that one out. So I had to fight for her. That's three marriage proposals she had in a matter of months.
Anthony 21:40
Just got it in in time.
Terry 21:41
Just got in in time
Anthony 21:42
Bless the motherly presence once again, who knew - put the word in at the right time
Pam 21:46
I chose the best.
Anthony 21:48
Onya Pam, nice one. And I wonder what the essence was then that appealed?
Pam 21:53
I think it was I remember, I hadn't seen Terry for 18 months. And I remember we met up in Mackay. And we just went for this longest walk. And he just told me what he was doing in Innisfail - he'd just been in Innisfail for some time. But in that time, he got very involved in the community, in a whole series of like, JC's, Toastmasters, he was involved in everything that seemed to be happening in town. And you know, and I hadn't seen that part of him. I don't think before he was always when we were students. He was always one of the kingpin people there - having a lot of fun and, and that sort of thing. And then this is another side of him that I saw - a more mature side, I suppose as well. And I had matured as well. So there was a combination of those two and, and I think I thought, oh this guy he's okay.
Anthony 22:57
And Terry, what was the essence that you were spotting in Pam, and I guess that has endured for the time you've been together?
Terry 23:05
I think it was the absence that I can remember, I was still studying in the year when Pam was away. And I can still remember sitting in the office at night. And I got a couple, two or three letters from her over that time in that year. And I can still remember sitting in the office just reading those letters over and over and over and crying at night. And thinking What have I lost and what have I missed? And so when mum got in touch and said, you know, Pam's back in Australia, and this is where she is. I thought well, I better have a go here, you know. And so I did, and that was sort - it was instant. And then when we got back in touch again. And that was it, you know?
Pam 23:49
Yeah, that's right.
Anthony 23:51
And how was it through the journey with RCS? I mean, I know that you have credited Pam with a lot over the journey. How would you sum it up?
Terry 24:02
Pam has been like the backbone, the backstop, the the person who's kept things going at home kept things going in the office while I was away. You know, for probably the first 25 years or more, I was spending 60 or 70% of my time on the road. And in the early years, during the school holidays, we would just pack up in our little car and pack the three kids in the car and away we'd go and we'd be visiting people and doing kid days and kids are just run the paddocks with other kids that they met. And so it was full on like everyone was involved in the business and when it came time to send mail outs and stuff the kids were in there folding stuff up and taking them down to the post office. And so it was was really a family affair right from the beginning and it had to be. You don't ever achieve anything on your own and, and unless there's somebody like Pam in the background that actually makes things happen. keeps things rolling, you know, and I'm, I look back on it now. And I think we are just so lucky, I'm so lucky, actually, that the kids actually love me and actually hang around because I wasn't around for a lot of their upbringing and particularly Roz, you know, I was away for every one of her birthdays for at least 20 odd years. And, you know, I really felt that and she did too. And so that sort of stuff you you miss a lot in terms of the family and the kids growing up. But Pam did an incredible job with the girls, and they are wonderful adults and human beings. And, and, and I didn't have a lot to do with that.
Anthony 25:42
Yeah, it is something that is one of those tough things, isn't it? Like someone needed to do what you did? Yet there was this personal cost to it? And I guess, though, it says something about how you can redeem it. Is that right? Well, when you're fortunate enough to live long enough, I suppose.
Pam 26:02
I think Terry sells himself short a bit too. Because when he was home, he was home. And it was quite a few concerts he got to and all those sorts of things that were important to the kids. But I think what the kids learned from them from Terry, was the fact that if you believed in something, you go for it. And also, hard work is not bad. Being away, you know, we can manage that. And they became quite independent, young girls from it, because they had to do certain things when I, I couldn't, didn't have the time. But from that they did learn so many things that together, you know, it was the integrity, it was standards, it was a values and I think, time doesn't give you those you do those by demonstration by how you live your life. And the girls all have those. And so I think he's a bit hard on himself sometimes, because it's really not not always the case. You know, there's a lot more to it than that.
Anthony 27:15
You mentioned the visioning and the belief. I've heard a bit about the family meetings. And how they were received in varying ways over the years. But similarly in the wash up with generally great gratitude and effect. But this is something you mentioned earlier, you worked through, you included everyone in these processes of visioning and what you were working for, even from a very, when the kids were very young. That was important.
Terry 27:44
It was important. I can remember one time we were sitting down one night, and I was talking to the girls about goal setting, and Stace must have been about 12 or 13 at the time. And 12 and 13 year old girls do not listen to their fathers or their parents and don't want to and I must have put it in a way that said, you know, I'd really like you to think about setting goals. Anyway, Stace went off in a huff, and got really, you know, sort of angry about having somebody suggest she do something. And anyway, she sat there and it was about nine o'clock at night, and I saw her pick up a piece of paper and scribble something down and, and then so she flashed it up me as she went to bed and said there I've done it. Anyway, I found out later, what she'd written down was that she wanted to get into the Queensland Youth Ensemble, orchestra, and play in Singapore. So she set that goal at 12. And by the age of either 13 or 14, she achieved that she was in the orchestra and played in Singapore and Sydney and all in Brisbane and all over the place. And, and I said to one of the other girls one night, I said, you remember Stace set that goal, and she's just achieved? And they said, Yeah, you gonna say anything? And I said, no way! You say something! But it actually, you know, it works and it sticks. And they've all done that since.
Anthony 29:16
Did they do that? Did they tell her?
Terry 29:19
I think they might have mentioned something, you know, pointed it out. But with Stace she didn't actually need to, because she would have known.
Anthony 29:26
Yeah. That's brilliant. You know, coming back to our present moment out of convergence. And we talked about society coming to meet this movement, let's say now, in so many ways, one of the ways that I felt grateful for out of the conference was it seems to be happening at a time when the elders are still around us. I'm referring to you and Charlie Massy, and a whole host - Fred Provenza. A whole host of them, but also on the first nation side - there's elders around - I mean, we heard from Gaala Watson, for example, and the inspiration she's drawing from her ancestors. And then the inspiration now that the others at Food Connect, where they're really embracing these processes, black card training and the like are gaining from being around her ancestors, the elders that are present. And we heard a lot about that opportunity too, didn't we? To invite more relationship between those peoples. And I was here with you guys for lunch, the week after the conference, and you had four generations buzzing around the table and the house, just feels like that wasn't always going to be the way I don't, there was no guarantees that was going to be the way that you're still around to see this. And to help guide it. Your daughters and others their age are around to drive it. First Nations elders are around driving those processes. And we've got this opportunity. And I certainly feel it to slot into a big, beautiful, yeah, convergence of wisdom, and insight, and healing. Let's face if we're talking about those domains, there's a lot of healing. But even on that, I guess so much of what we saw out of the conference, so much of what the processes you guys have run over the journey have been about healing too. Does that occur to you that there's this sort of multi generational thing right now that's buzzing about?
Terry 31:27
Oh yeah, it's been evident for some time through our schools, for example, we've been getting probably between 10 and 20% of the participants in our programs are now second generation. And I've got up to 10 3rd generations where I taught the grandparents, the parents and then the grandchildren. And so it's been evident to me that that that intergenerational stuff is coming. And the other thing that's been really evident is that we've been dealing with succession issues for 35 years or so. And there's a generation from the the late 70s, into the 80s. And into the 90s. That is a generation that found it extremely difficult to do succession, they're a generation that found it very difficult to communicate. And it's you go right back, and they were a generation that was bought up through the Depression, and one or two world wars, or at least one World War. And so they learned to hold things in and just accept what they got. But found it very hard to let go. What I'm finding now is the baby boomer generation is doing succession. And that's a lot easier. So So I think I'm finding that that the generational shift in agriculture is getting better. And there's many more young people in their 20s 30s and 40s now that are actually getting the reins and are really starting to drive change. And and that's that's much more exciting than, than it was even you know, 20 odd years ago.
Anthony 33:05
In fact, you taught the 10th grandchild not too long ago, didn't you? And you had made a promise to Pam that that'd be it. That'd be curtains for your teaching.
Terry 33:16
I did yeah, and I realized that the end of a school actually, in the last hour and a half that the 10th grandchild was actually in the room. And so that was it. I said at the end of the school, that was last year, that that was my last one. And it has been. And the great thing was that I didn't do it as my last school. It wasn't actually my last school till I finished it and realized only in the last hour and a half so so it had that had the feeling going into it that you know, I was going to keep going but it was right at the end. I thought no this is it.
Anthony 33:53
You know, when I speak about elders, I'm reminded of a time when I was with Noel Nannup - revered elder, indigenous elder in around Perth Noongar Country. And I said something about coming out of my processes with all this, that there's something happening here. There's something up where something incredible could be pulled off. And there was almost what felt like an involuntary Yelp from Noel, but then everybody notices when Noel does it, that was like, Yep. Just that, that was it. A resounding solid Yep. Is that something you're sensing too?
Terry 34:28
Yeah. No doubt. And you can see also now much more recognition of indigenous role in Australia. And that's been a long time coming as well. And I think that as we converge some indigenous wisdom, with our current knowledge and limited as it is there's a convergence happening there as well. And I think that's also exciting. And, and I think we've got a lot to learn culturally, about how to have a society survive for 20 or 30 or 40,000 years. You know, we're 200 years old, and and we're in trouble. So it's, we've got a lot to learn. And, and I can see that real willingness there. And an opening up happening.
Anthony 35:20
It does make me wonder I said it once or twice at the conference, when you consider how powerful our respective knowledge systems are, when you talk about the shortcomings of ours, the trouble we're getting ourselves in, but nonetheless, the power of it, right. So the power of Western mode of thinking, and the incredible sophistication and power of a millennia proven way of thinking, bringing those together, like actually combining those, which is a lot of what I'm hearing from first nations leaders now and elders now, it's like, imagine if we do that, let's combine forces, and where could that take us in terms of healing, and but in terms of just genuine prospects of regeneration, as well. So it does get the juices flowing a bit, doesn't it? Speaking of getting the juices flowing, I want to get to where we go from here too out of convergence, right, but just to dwell a bit more in what actually took place. And your session, in particular, Terry, which turned into a bit of a showcase, I mean, it was on social licence, right, because of this unprecedented threat to the social licence of agriculture and the meat issue front and center, but not only. And here was this then array of producer stories that you sort of led through over the hour session that really packed a massive punch. Tell me what that was like, for you, in the end. I mean, you obviously had a vision for it, you curated it, but how it played out for you.
Terry 36:51
For me, it was really wanting to demonstrate that these are the people who are making the difference. It's not people like me, all I've been is a catalyst. But the real change happens from the people that stood up and talked through what was supposed to be my talk. And I was really happy with the way it came together, we talked a little bit about carbon, but realize that carbon is limiting to a degree and then we talked a little bit about natural capital, which opens it up and brought stewardship into the discussion. And then talked about families and business and, and the struggles that some people go through. But if you have the right system and a regenerative approach to agriculture, you can survive almost anything and come out the other side with a happy, contented, really beautiful family and, and successful financially as well. And then we went to Craig who's had a massive struggle through his life with alcoholism, and depression and anxiety, and all sorts of things. And we've been a part of his journey for a very, very long time. And I think that the purpose really of Craig telling his story is to show that at the end of the day, it all comes back to people, and how well we are mentally, how well we are physically, and how well we can change our attitude and our minds as to where we go and what we need to do in future. And I think those four stories actually wove that together really beautifully. And it does, at the end of the day, come back to the people and their attitudes and what they want to achieve. And once that's clear, the future is just, it's unbounded in what we can achieve.
Anthony 38:47
And there was such emotion after that. It's going to be hard to convey to the listener here and now who wasn't there, but perhaps they'll get opportunities to see proceedings in another form. But the emotion in the room after those stories which did yes interweave to a climax with Craig's story, and and your own, for that matter, the tribute that you received at the end of that session too, that seemed to be universal, seemed to really put the big exclamation mark on proceedings that this was yeah, about life.
Terry 39:21
Feedback from a lot of people like the medicals and the vets and various people that have been to lots and lots of conferences in their life, that are about technical stuff. And it's about technical solutions. And they commented on the fact that you actually showed emotion and you allowed emotion in that conference. And it really brought the people in and I think the reason why it was so emotional at the end of that is it resonated with so many people in that room. There wasn't a person in that room that couldn't resonate with some or all of those stories, and particularly the mental health aspect. And I know that there were people sitting in that room that I know have dealt with enormous mental health issues over a long period of time. And they were able to resonate with that. And, you know, I guess one of the greatest learnings of my life is that it's not about agriculture, and it's not about the land, it's all about people. And that when we get the people right, everything else works. And, and when the people are right, they start to heal the land, the land heals the people, and we're in a beautiful cycle, then of healing everything. And I think that's what that session demonstrated.
Anthony 40:45
Yeah. How did that strike you in that moment Pam?
Pam 40:52
I was unaware of Terry's presentation. He kept that quite close to his chest, for good reason, I think. And none of them - we were sitting with obviously different ones at different times - and none of them had indicated anything. And so, for me, it was a lovely, once again, a lovely connection between them all. I know that Carly and Grant have just done amazing things on their property and, and, and the energy that she has with that. And once again, Rod and Kate, you know they're just quiet achievers, they just go and do their thing and Rod makes a song up. And he's just, they're just such lovely people. And, and then Katie and Brad, who shared, you know, their journey. And when, when Craig got up on and I knew, you know, the bravery that he showed - it was very hard to contain any emotion. Because it was such a brave thing to do. And he has, he has done it for us several times to get that message across. And I think for Craig, one of our proudest moments was when we went to the wedding, he and Fiona's wedding and we were just proud of it, because he just was in a space that and has been in a space that is just amazing. So I guess I think at the end of that, I think, you know, the, the openness and the honesty. You know, that's what we're proud of the fact that our clients and our friends are just so open to sharing that stuff. It's um, you know, a lot of people wouldn't and, you know, it's so raw a lot of it. Yeah, it's was just amazing.
Anthony 42:38
No, I agree. I think the openness and the humility you mentioned and the integrity, I've come to feel like that's actually my key barometer now with people. If they're coming with that, then I know, it's, it's worth spending time with, because it's so universal amongst these stories. Then the other thing I think one of the big things for me that seemed to echo throughout the conference was story, the power of story and life story as, you know, Ross O'Reilly puts it, who you put me onto here in Yeppoon - the life story stuff. And when Garlone Moulin, in another session, brought the house down with her story, and great discomfort in telling it, but she's, you know, sort of if I can do it, anyone can do it type of thing. And, and we need to do it, she's saying. It does feel like that's one of the opportunities that was screaming from convergence was for more of the 7000 people who've been through the program, certainly the 600 at convergence is to connect with their stories more broadly. Would you agree?
Terry 43:49
I would. And I remember Garlone, the first time she came anywhere near me and - she and Jamie did their first course in Townsville. And I remember them, they were a young couple then and they would every break, they would be off on their own stuck in a corner. They didn't interact with anybody. They were so shy, and to see her 20 odd years later, stand up and bring the house down. That is That just brought tears to my eyes because of the change in her and the change in him. And that's the embodiment of what I'm saying. It's that change in the human. And they some of that change is brought about by what they're seeing happening in their land, and it emboldens them to talk about it. And I was reflecting on a lot of what the producers were proudest of, and they were proud of, she was very proud of the frogs, you know, and Rod was so proud of the dirty water coming onto his place and the clean water leaving his place. And Katie was the same and they are all so proud of, of what impact they're having on their environment. And I thought isn't that just a wonderful thing, if all of our farmers around the world felt like that about their land, and the thing they went to the pub and talked about was their frogs, or their clean water? Wouldn't this be a different world instead of going and talking about bragging about yields, that we talked about what change they'd made to their environment? We would be in a different world. And that's the change that I'm thinking we are just at the beginning. I'm seeing now that's starting to gather momentum.
Anthony 45:45
Yep. Coz then I think, from an eater perspective, you know, a non producer to be bragging about the same stuff, in a sense, like that my farmer, the farmers that I source from, are talking about the dadada. Yeah. And that's - as well as the quality of the food, of course, because this is what we're learning, they go hand in hand. Yeah. It'd be good to touch on. And I think this is the moment to, because it gives great context when we talk about really, essentially those benchmarks, those ultimate benchmarks of success, that there are other, the more, I don't know, what would you call it? Reductionist, but not to put a bad tag on it, benchmarks of success, like the carbon sequestration and so forth. You mentioned carbon, you mentioned natural capital, there were moments where you let a bit out of the bag, about some things you've been working on, that could be extremely significant if they come off. So we'll hold the board conversation, till there's more of a sign of that. But might be worth giving a bit of a hint, as you've disclosed elsewhere, in terms of some of the measurements that you've made, and some of what looks like is coming down the line. And let's start with Carly and Grant's place then hey?
Terry 47:02
In 2016, we started off with five properties where we - across about 18,000 hectares - and we did a really solid carbon benchmark and and that was a soil measurement as well as their emission measurements. over the previous five years. We re-measured those and redid the emissions over the last six months or so. And the results have been astounding, particularly given that every one of those properties had at least two and a half years of severe drought. So this is the 18-19 drought in that five year period. Three of them have dealt with pasture die back, which up to 30% of their properties where pastures were dead through some unknown cause. One of them had been completely burned out in the 2019 bushfires 100% burned out. And so they faced all the normal things that agriculture faces through that five year period. And yet they still sequestered soil carbon. They were all very, very good managers. So they managed all of those adversities really, really well. And that, I think, is the key to the fact that they kept what they sequestered in the better years, over the four years. So I think there's a couple of things around the carbon that are pretty interesting. One is that on Carly and Grant's place, for example, the sums are showing that for every kilogram of steak that they have sold off that property over the last five years, they've sequestered 50 kilograms of carbon dioxide into their soil. That's astounding. So what that says is that if we really want to save the planet, we need to eat more steak, not less. And the other thing is just in terms of the economics, across the board across the properties, the return from carbon, and these are unaudited results at the moment, but the net returns per hectare per annum, over that period, have been between about $100 a hectare and $200 a hectare. And it varies a little bit from property to property. At the same time, they are all cattle producers, their net income from livestock over the same five year period averaged as high as $30 a hectare per year. So the potential income that they will get over the next six months or so from carbon sequestration will significantly exceed the income from livestock over that same period. But really sequestering a significant amount of carbon for every kilo of beef that hits the table. And I think that is a fascinating story. And the natural capital is another step up from that - that's looking at everything that's not carbon and beyond carbon. So that's our birds, insects, the tree cover, ground cover, what's happening to water on the property. You know, is it coming on dirty going off clean that sort of thing. Measuring all the biodiversity everything else is the natural capital. And I think that we've got some preliminary estimates on what that can be worth as well. And it's worth a little bit more than the carbon. So if you put natural capital together with carbon, and this is soil carbon only, then the impact on profitability of a livestock farm can be quite significant. And I guess that's what the preliminary data is showing. Now that's got to be yet confirmed with a) by the market, what the market is prepared to pay for these things. But also the verification of those processes in the meantime. So I think, hopefully, within six months, we'll have good answers to all of those questions and be able to be much more definitive about it.
Anthony 50:52
Could be real game changes. It does put a bit of flesh on the bones to the stuff that we've realized - and I've learned, you know, in this process of my own process of inquiry, is that it's such a narrow argument to be targeting cattle on land in a carte blanche way, as a problem. And I was thinking, even if it's not that strong a net gain in carbon sequestration terms, for example, you're still getting land restoration, that it's functioning ecosystems. But then when you talk, even in the carbon space itself, like I'd be prepared to wear some carbon cost if you like, for the rest of the benefits, and then we just trim carbon from elsewhere type of thing. That's sort of my thinking throughout, as I've learned more and more, but the fact that such a potentially massive punch, even on that criterium alone, is extraordinary. Let along then when you talk about natural capital, and how those market mechanisms if they come off, could change things.
Terry 51:50
Yeah, I think the exciting thing for me is that people that have been doing this for a very long time for the right reasons, because they wanted to they wanted to change their environment, it means there's going to be rewards for them down the track. And that will encourage more and more people. And I think if we've got market mechanisms that do encourage the shift in the way we manage ecosystems, then we will accelerate that outcome we need where we've got farmers sitting in the pub talking about their frogs and their water instead of talking about their yields.
Anthony 52:24
Right now in Holland, of course, I mean, we're talking about social licence. And I guess this will be a story that can ground it in how serious this is, and for all of us, not just for farmers if all this is at stake. So in Holland, things appear to be just getting worse, unfortunately. But this is just one case in point, it seems indicative of what's at play broadly. But it's hitting the fan in the Netherlands right now. Where - I'll let you talk to it - but basically a government edict and a farmer response that has set up such a polar clash. That seems - well, it is - ostensibly so needless. Tell us about what's going on there, Terry, and what to you is staring us in the face.
Terry 53:08
It's an edict for farmers to reduce nitrogen from the government. But the driver of that is nitrous oxide, which is emitted from using artificial nitrogen onto paddocks. And so it's got a carbon story to it. And the government is actually right, nitrogen does damage, it does emit a lot of co2. And it does go into waterways, into the ground water, and so on. So overuse of nitrogen, there's no doubt damages, not only environment, but food quality. And whether that nitrogen comes out of a bag or even comes out of compost, it has the same negative impact on food quality. So the government's actually right. The farmers are right as well saying, well, we can't afford to just go bang and stop using nitrogen. That means we have to reduce our livestock numbers and we can't survive, and we can't feed people and so on. Unfortunately, they're both right and they're both wrong. The solution is actually to talk about the solutions rather than go down and say well stop using nitrogen. The solution is actually well, let's teach you to reduce nitrogen and get the same levels of productivity. And that's easily possible. It might take between two and five years to make that transition in the soil health to where the soil biology actually takes that nitrogen out of the air and does the job for you for nothing. And in that case, everybody wins. The farmers win because they're not spending the money on nitrogen. The consumer wins, because they're going to get a better quality product, because it's not pumped full of artificial nitrogen. The government and society wins because that nitrogen is now not being artificially created and poured onto the ground creating nitrous oxide. And the animals win because when you take a lot of that artificial stuff out of the system, animal health improves. So it's a win win win win win in every direction that's possible. Not only Holland, but in Ireland, where they're talking the same thing, New Zealand where they're starting to talk the same thing, Poland where they're starting to talk the same thing. So it's polarizing and it doesn't need to be. Because there's beautiful solutions right smack bang in the middle.
Anthony 55:24
Well it does emphasize the point doesn't it that this is an imminent thing now - it really needs to be broached now. And it reminds me of - what was it now, a couple of years ago when I spoke to Allan Savory on the podcast. And it's funny, because I've never forgotten. And I've had a few listeners over the journey remind me. And one was just last week, who had caught up on it got on the podcast and caught up on it and said, so what about when Allan Savory suggested you go meet with the Prime Minister to suggest ...
Pam 55:54
Yeah.
Anthony 55:54
... that these are the way out? And yeah - I haven't forgotten it. The conversations are brewing, aren't they? And here's another one of them. But what do you think, Terry? In terms of that angle? And I guess this moment, is it something that needs to, that can be done, that a regenerative approach to agriculture could be put to that level of government in this country, and be seen for that possibility?
Terry 56:22
I, I tend to think the answer actually lies through the farmers rather than the government. When governments do things, it tends to be top down and this is the way you'll do it. Government's role in this is probably more to fund the training and the knowledge base and some research that helps make those steps. That's their role, not to say this is how you need to farm. And also not, you know, not to say you will, you will do this, and you will reduce that, because it shows a lack of understanding of how the system operates. So I think that the solution is actually to get to the farming organizations. And if you can find people in there who are open minded to alternative solutions, and solutions to this, and start from the ground up, and start with one farmer, 2, 5, 10, 20, 100. That's where you make progress.
Anthony 57:18
This is doubly interesting to me, Terry, too in terms of where we go from here, because what we saw all of 12 months out from the federal election that was so transformative here in Australia, was farmer and Australia's first female independent MP, Cathy McGowan, say things like, things are so bad, it's just been made for us. And what do you know, a movement coalesced around her that got people at a grassroots level, who'd never been involved in political campaigns and so forth, to get stuck in and another whatever it's been eight or something female, independent MPs were elected. At the first elections - she was thinking by 2030, well still is thinking the work's to be done by 2030. It made me think a couple of things with this stuff is that a) maybe it can happen a dam sight quicker than we might be imagining, if it's done in this way. And then b) if it's done in this way, that sort of community mycelial network spread, that it's not just limited to farmers then - there's the opportunity to cross over, to connect with each other across all different spheres. And I noted when you hung up the whiteboard, you said something like, you'll spend more time now bridging between groups and sectors. Is that something of what you've got in mind?
Terry 58:38
Yeah, I went on a spiritual journey a couple of years ago, and sort of came back from that thinking that there's a, there's another level that I need to go to, to provide influence. And that's actually been happening it, it just has been gradually happening organically, and rather than work now one on one with, with producers, and we've got a lot of brilliant staff that can continue that work. My role probably needs to move to a different level. And it's starting to, and to have more of these sorts of discussions and find the people that we can influence through these discussions.
Anthony 59:19
How did you go about that journey where that was - your moving into that space, I suppose? Were there specific things that you were embarking on?
Terry 59:29
Well, my spiritual journey - that was a trip I did to the US, and a whole lot of things coalesced on the way and it was - a very good friend gave me a book, which I read in the plane on the way over and it was a - started my whole sort of - set my mind up if you like and my intentions up.
Terry 59:52
I can't remember. But it was actually a really good summary of a whole lot of stuff which I read over a lot of years. And then things just happened, one after the other after the other. And one of my reasons for going was to do a program of sitting up in the hills with Nicole Masters and a group of her people in the US, was called land listening. And I went to do this land listening program. And so that was sort of towards the end of, of the journey. And then while I was doing the - also, early on was where I actually had the conversations with the wolves on that same trip. Then went up into Montana, and did the land listening program. And at that stage, then we were talking to things like the grizzly bears and, and other beings within the landscape. But I met a woman then who, who was a shaman. And I asked her, whether she would give me a session, which she did. And that was very, very deep, that went to places back into past lives, went into stuff that really shook me up.
Anthony 59:52
What was the book called?
Anthony 1:01:11
Did you, was that with substance use of some kind?
Terry 1:01:15
No, no, just straight meditation, and then she was able to lead me to places. She seemed to know where she was going. And I had no idea where she was going. But it went to some really fascinating places. And it went for hours and hours and hours. And we had a couple of sessions. And it was out of some of that work that I started to realize and she said to me, you've got to start increasing your influence to a different level than where you've been. And then there was other things happened after that, that just all sort of coalesced stuff. And I thought, when I got back, I'm not sure Pam knew what planet I was on.
Anthony 1:02:03
Was it a bit like that?
Pam 1:02:03
It was a bit like that. Sometimes I still wonder. We're doing fine.
Terry 1:02:13
So it was a an awakening for me. And I guess it lifted my consciousness to another level.
Anthony 1:02:22
Pam, in all seriousness, you and your spiritual journey hasn't been the same, obviously. But the connection's remained. So what has it been for you? Have you considered yourself on a spiritual journey through this process as well? And what's that look like for you?
Pam 1:02:38
I think inwardly it is my journey, but our partnership / marriage, whatever, has always been - Terry needs backup. And luckily, that's in my personality and my nature, I'm a very detailed person, probably a little more practical in some aspects and a bit more grounded, not grounded as such. But absolutely, I can see what needs to be done. And I think luckily for us, that's worked well, that's allowed Terry, to take the big leaps, I'm very happy to go along with him. And I know that family is extremely important to him, he wouldn't be able to do this without family. And, and I guess I've taken a little role as the family you know, the family maker and enjoy those journeys. And yeah, just inwardly the spiritual is there and be grateful for where we go.
Anthony 1:03:46
Yeah, beautiful. Terry, when you talk about that journey, I can't help but wonder, perhaps a way to ask it is what was perhaps the most challenging edge of it in all those hours with the Shaman? Was there a point where you're like, I don't know?
Terry 1:04:04
One of the things that she got me to do was to actually shrink right down and go inside my body and explore what was going on inside my body. And I found a - it was up in my neck, I found a - lump. And she asked me what it was and I said, Well, it's the same as what's on my leg - and I had just had been diagnosed before I went away with a couple of things on my leg that need to be cut out. A couple of skin spots things and anyway, I said, Well, it's the same thing. Anyway, I used the word cell and I can't remember how that came up. And so then she, she actually encapsulated that thing and shrunk it up and disappeared it and interestingly enough, I had three things on my legged, the doctor was going to cut off when I got back. And I got back and only one of them was left. Anyway, we then went down into, she just took me deeper and deeper and deeper and. And I saw myself sitting in a cell peering out. And it was in the 1800s. And I'm sitting in this cell peering out through the bars. And she's asking me questions, and, and so she said, where are you? And I said, I'm in a cell. And it wasn't till later, I got the connection between - I was talking about a physical, you know, bodily cell. And then within half an hour, I end up in a prison cell. And she said, Well, what did you do? And I said, Well, I murdered somebody. And that was a hell of a shock to me. And she just kept going, and said who was it? And I said, Oh, well, it was my wife. Which, again, like, you can imagine that coming out of your mouth, and you're thinking, like I obviously knew nothing about any of this. And it was, it was so real. Like I was sitting in the behind these bars, I could see myself, I could see the bars, it was just so real. And then this woman appeared sitting in front of me. And she said, can you see who it is? And I said, No, because she had a - it was 1800s, so she had like a veil thing on and I couldn't see her face. And I said, I can't see who it is. And she said, Ask her why you did it. And so I did. And, and it what it turned out was she'd actually died in childbirth. And I blamed myself. And I just went wild. And I was in jail, because I don't know what I'd done - but it wasn't because I'd murdered anybody, which was a hell of a relief to me. But I'd actually taken on that guilt. And then this woman turned around, and I can see her face. And I said to her, I said it's you. And she actually had a massive journey and crash after that, as a result of that as well. So you can imagine we had a bit of recovery to do after that. And that's the sort of level that it got to and it was, it was really, really confronting. And basically, she said, Well, you, you're, what we, the outcome of that was that it was about ego. So that I had, I had an ego that said that I had actually created that depth. And I was ego, and I'd never let go of it over however many iterations that was.
Anthony 1:07:51
yeah. So something's still present in you today, was the point?
Terry 1:07:54
Well, we cleared that then because it was identified where it had come from and what it was. So it was like, it was a pretty deep journey.
Anthony 1:08:05
More for another day!
Terry 1:08:09
People will think I'm an absolute nut now.
Anthony 1:08:10
That was out of the bag. No, this is terrific. Terry, it is fascinating to go into and again, hearing more about these domains, the intergenerational traumas, and the epigenetics and - it will be stuff for more conversation, no doubt. And yes, the spiritual journey, just the other, the other domains of life, the miracle of life, isn't it? Okay. As we wind towards the close, let's round a couple of threads out with the where to from here. You're thinking, for example, in the seizing the moment mould, that the next convergence may not be that far away. Certainly not decadal, certainly not 2030, but perhaps somewhere halfway. You're also thinking perhaps regional efforts, gatherings dispersed across the country. And I believe you're thinking - it's certainly something I've been thinking clearly from what I said earlier - about cross sectoral efforts, with health professionals, with finance professionals, with I mean, Laura Dalrymple was at convergence, saying, I'm a butcher, we should be your greatest ambassadors, you know, that sort of thing - the craft of processing. Tell us about what you're thinking on that level. What comes next?
Terry 1:09:29
Because of the, the energy I think that was created there, and the convergence of the thinking and the minds and the intention? It seems to me that it would be - well, the pace of change globally is speeding up. And I think that even the pace of change in human consciousness is speeding up. And therefore, we've completely missed the point if we waited another eight years for another conference like that. Secondly, there's a lot of people that couldn't travel to it, that a lot of people that wanted to be there couldn't travel, and would benefit from hearing something like that, or being involved in a program like that. And the more people that we can bring together and converge into people talking about - I just keep coming back to the frogs and the water, you know, that's where we need to get everybody to, and the more we can get on that journey, and then the more we can connect the economics, you know, the stuff that Katherine Trebek talked about - I don't believe we can actually change co2 and a whole lot of things globally until we change our economic system, because that's the driver of all the stuff that's taking us in the wrong direction. So we've got to have economists and people involved in this journey in this discussion, we got to have the health professionals involved in these discussions, the people that can heal land involved in these discussions, the bureaucrats involved in these discussions, hopefully, some politicians, but I don't believe that they are leaders, I believe they're generally followers. But I think that the way we'll change this is the ground up. Like you're talking about the teal movement, it's a ground up shift. And I guess what I'm seeing is a real need within society, generally now, to move back into community, have community connections, and develop community again, whether that's at a family level, tribal level, you know, village level, there's a need for us to get back to our roots. And I believe we're hardwired for that. And so the more of this stuff we can do, the more of those villages and communities that can be created, that are like minded, that will drive their own agendas and drive their own stuff. I don't look at convergence and what we're doing as driving, we're sort of catalytic - locals have got to do their own driving, communities need to come together and do their own driving. And I, I believe there's a real need for that. So I think if we can take the messages of convergence to more people regionally in a shorter timeframe, we can help facilitate more of that community development and building.
Anthony 1:12:22
Yeah precisely, that word community was what I was thinking to. And you could just imagine the crossovers between agriculture and yeah, parliamentary representation, the way it's playing out with Cathy McGowan's leadership and others, women in parliament, First Nations in Parliament more than ever now, refugees as well for that matter. But then yeah, how that connects with the different professions all around the country, you could well imagine. Very exciting dialogues. And I know some of these are occurring with The Next Economy's work, for example, Amanda Cahill, again, would have been played on this podcast I've recorded with her while I was over here in Queensland. And her work that sort of took off mostly in coal communities in transition, but they were saying the same thing. They're saying, Atherton's got a bustling Main Street. Ours is crap - ours is shot, vacant window fronts everywhere. We want the bustling Main Street in our town again. So there's okay, how can we go about that? What are other ways we can come together? I think if ever we were going to say we're all in this together.
Pam 1:13:25
Yeah.
Anthony 1:13:26
It's striking, hey? I wondered for you Pam, in closing, if you had just a general sense for yourself coming out of convergence of, of what stood out? Or was it indeed just that in terms of where to go from here and how?
Pam 1:13:41
I think one of the connecting things for me was on Sunday night, we went out to dinner, and I looked around the room, there was mainly people from out of state, which was lovely, but they were young. The youth and the energy, they were so excited that this was to me so important that the young kids are excited, the young ones who are out there making a difference. They've, they got it and to me that you know, you sort of think oh, you know, there will be time in the rocking chair because the young ones are out there doing it. And and I think that for me was just a huge reward.
Anthony 1:14:27
Beautifully said - another benchmark of development - time in the rocking chair. Love it. So I close each episode with a story about a piece of music that's been significant to my guest in their lives. Perhaps you want to come with something that's been significant in your partnership - is there one? A piece of music that we would categorize like that? Or perhaps Pam, you can just take the mantle and speak to us about a piece of music that's been significant for you?
Pam 1:14:59
The kids would say I'm pretty well tone deaf. But I think one of the interesting things was when we were kids in the car, Terry would love the country hour - the country music channel on the radio. And that would be blaring, the kids would have their time later on, but it was his time. And I think the fact that country music has always played a large part in our, in our musical lives, I think is very apt for the work that we do. Lots of that's amazing stories in there.
Anthony 1:15:35
outstanding. Is there a particular song that would really get the volume pumped up, Terry?
Terry 1:15:40
there's not I'm a little bit like Pam, and tone deaf, actually. And, and I've got this funny mind where I've never heard the words of a song. And I didn't actually know for probably decades that there were words in songs, so I don't get the meaning from song so they don't stick with me. So there isn't one. Often, it's usually a beat, or it's usually a melody, that attracts me. And usually something comes to me in the morning when I'm in the shower, and I start humming and whistling and whatever. And that's where, and it can be a different one every day. That's, but I never know the words.
Anthony 1:16:20
Outstanding you guys. Thanks a lot for speaking with me today. It's been so good to gather with you at your place. It had become a bit of a mythological archetype, the place on the hill, over the years - so many people talking to me about it. But to be here with you is wonderful. And really, that thanks extends, obviously, to having me at convergence. And also just in general, with this community on the journey, I feel very honored to be a part of it. So thanks for having me.
Pam 1:16:47
Thank you, Anthony, for continuing that journey. You're you're out there now, you're the voice and you did such amazing work with the conference. It was from the heart. And we so much appreciate it and it was so important to the success of the conference. Thank you.
Anthony 1:17:03
Thanks Pam, thank you.
Terry 1:17:04
Yeah, you were a critical part of the success of that. And you're a thought leader and an influencer. And I think that's great. You just keep that up and keep churning away. And with the community that you're building around you. They'll make some differences.
Pam 1:17:21
Yeah, that's right.
Anthony 1:17:21
Will do mate, let's all keep on it - till we hit that rocking chair.
Anthony 1:17:26
Thanks guys.
Pam 1:17:27
Thank you. Thank you, Anthony.
Anthony 1:17:29
That was Terry and Pam McCosker, the partnership behind the rise of the trailblazing regenerative outfit, RCS Australia. Pam later told me that actually having grown up in the 60s and 70s, she and Terry felt so fortunate to be surrounded by music that still stirs their hearts - and feet. Elvis, The Beatles, Abba, Queen, just to name a few. I'm feeling more envy now than I was at the thought of Terry's country music. Na, I like country too. For more on RCS Australia, a short highlights video of convergence, my conversation with Terry back in 2020, and of course for a transcript of our conversation, see the links in our program details. You can also find a selection of photos on the episode web page, and I'll share a bunch more from the convergence event with subscribing patrons on Patreon too. And a reminder that you can join the Yeppoon community on the 24th of September at the New Dawn gathering - details in last week's episode, which featured another local Yeppoon legend. Also a reminder that I'll be at the brilliant Quantum Woods festival in person in Perth next weekend. So join me if you can from the 16th to the 18th of September. I'll be hosting conversations with Bruce Pascoe, Greg Mullins, Oral McGuire, Lesley Head and others. Hope to see some of you there.
Anthony 1:19:01
And that's of course with thanks as always to the generous supporters who've helped make this episode possible. If you're enjoying what you hear, please consider joining this community of supporting listeners so I can keep the podcast going. Just head to the website via the show notes regennarration.com/support. Thanks again. And if you can share this episode with someone you know who you think might like it. The music you're hearing is Regeneration by Amelia Barden off the Regenerating Australia soundtrack. My name is Anthony James.Thanks for listening.
Find more:
Watch a 3-minute highlight video of the recent Convergence event, produced by Farmers Footprint Australia (which also launched at that event).
And you can now gain access to all of the presentation recordings at Convergence via RCS Australia for $150.
Hear Terry and Anthony in conversation back in 2020 for episode 67: ‘Behind the Greatest Regenerative Agriculture Movement in Australia: Dr Terry McCosker on life, death and learning true power’.
Join me at the Quantum Words Festival in Perth 16-18 September 2022.
Music:
Regeneration, composed by Amelia Barden, from the soundtrack of the new film Regenerating Australia, available for community screenings now.