134. The Next Economy
Dr Amanda Cahill on showing up for communities in transition
Dr Amanda Cahill is the CEO of The Next Economy. I feel like I’ve already introduced Amanda to you, given how often she’s come up in conversations here. And you might even recognise her from Damon Gameau’s film 2040, or more recently on the ABC’s Q&A program.
Amanda’s work at The Next Economy supports communities, government, industry and others to develop a more resilient, just and regenerative economy. Most of this work results from being increasingly invited into regional communities around Australia. These are often major coal-producing communities at the centre of energy transition debates in this country. Tensions are often high, and polarisation rife, which has made us all subject to political exploitation at times. And we all lose from that. But Amanda’s work with these communities is creating a different trajectory. And now it’s not just communities inviting in The Next Economy - but governments, industry and media (even globally).
Amanda Cahill at home, just before this conversation (pic: Anthony James).
“The number of councils in coal regions that are contacting us saying, right, we need a transition plan, how do you help us? What do we need to think about? It’s like, suddenly, the space and the permission is there for people to talk about what they wanted to talk about for years, but have been too scared to. But also just to start focusing on just getting on with it. And people - there’s a joy. I hear the joy and relief in people’s voices, who beforehand were very closed and skeptical. ”
I first met Amanda back in 2016, at the outset of the New Economy Network of Australia. We got to know each other a little at panel conversations and the like, as recognition of her work grew. But when we last caught up at her place in late 2018, it seemed like The Next Economy was going to end before it had even really begun. How things have changed. Soon after came the first transformative shift. And in the last year alone, the organisation has grown eight-fold. Transformative change is gaining momentum – across multiple inter-related systems. But Amanda’s still feeling concerned. The next three years are vital, she says. And all largely pending how well we can be really present with each other, deeply listen, and support communities in the transitions underway everywhere.
This conversation was recorded at Amanda’s place in Brisbane, on 14 July 2022.
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Please note this transcript isn’t perfect, but hopefully serves to provide greater access to these conversations for those who need or like to read.
SPEAKERS
Anthony James (host), Dr Amanda Cahill
Anthony
You're with The RegenNarration, exploring how communities everywhere are changing the systems and stories we live by. It's trusted, independent media. No ads, no paywall & no sell. Thanks to the support of listeners like you. So a special thanks this week to Paul Vergnot & Nikki Thompson, for becoming treasured podcast subscribers. It's because of support like yours that I've finally managed to take a long-desired step with the podcast - to produce transcripts of our conversations. For accessibility reasons mostly, and also for those who prefer to read, scan ahead, or share passages with others. It all takes more time, and costs more money, so thanks for making it possible. A little disclaimer - the transcripts aren't perfect - that would take even more time and money. But it's a step I believe in taking, and hope is of some value.
If you too sense something worthwhile in all this, please consider joining Paul & Nikki, and a great community of supporting listeners, with as little as $3 a month, or whatever amount you can and want to contribute. You can get all sorts of benefits, including of course continuing to receive the podcast with transcripts every week. You'll get exclusive access to some behind the scenes footage, a place to engage with other listeners, special offers, invitations and more. Just head to the website via the show notes - regennarration.com/Support. Thanks a lot!Amanda
The number of councils in coal regions that are contacting us saying, right, we need a transition plan, how do you help us? What do we need to think about? It’s like, suddenly, the space and the permission is there for people to talk about what they wanted to talk about for years, but have been too scared to. But also just to start focusing on just getting on with it. And people - there’s a joy. I hear the joy and relief in people’s voices, who beforehand were very closed and skeptical.
Anthony
G'day, my name's Anthony James, this is The RegenNarration, and that was the CEO of The Next Economy, Dr Amanda Cahill. I feel like I've already introduced Amanda to you, given how often she's come up in conversations here. And you might even recognise her from Damon Gameau's film 2040, or more recently on the ABC's Q&A program. Amanda's work at The Next Economy supports communities, government, industry and others to develop a more resilient, just and regenerative economy. Most of this work results from being increasingly invited into regional communities around Australia. These are often major coal-producing communities at the centre of energy transition debates in this country. Tensions are often high, and polarisation rife, which has made us all subject to political exploitation at times. And we all lose from that. But Amanda's work with these communities is creating a different trajectory. And now it's not just communities inviting in The Next Economy - but governments, industry and media (even globally).
I first met Amanda back in 2016, at the outset of the New Economy Network of Australia. We got to know each other a little at panel conversations and the like, as recognition of her work grew. But when we last caught up at her place in late 2018, it seemed like The Next Economy was going to end before it had even really begun. How things have changed. Soon after came the first transformative shift. And in the last year alone, the organisation has grown eight-fold. Transformative change is gaining momentum - across multiple inter-related systems. But Amanda's still feeling concerned. The next three years are vital, she says. And all largely pending how well we can be really present with each other, deeply listen, and support communities in the transitions underway everywhere.
So join us, on the back verandah at Amanda's place, amongst some exuberant local bird life, one sunny Brisbane morning.
Anthony 00:00
Amanda, it's so good to be with you again and to be at your place on your back porch in the footsteps of the BBC, no less, you've just told me. This is terrific. Thanks for speaking with me.
Amanda
Oh, thanks for the invitation. It's so nice to see you again.
Anthony 00:59
We were just talking about your appearance on Q&A. And for international listeners, that's sort of like our, the ABC's national civic square, if you like.
Amanda 01:08
Political program. Yeah.
Anthony 01:09
Yeah. And you were on there just pre our federal election. We were just talking about it. And it is where I wanted to start. Because I wondered what you might have learned, what you took home from that experience.
Amanda 01:23
Hoho, uh, yeah. So for people who are not familiar with the show, it's designed to be contestation, and they get questions from the public around political issues. And the panel I was on had three politicians two or three weeks before the election. And in a rural regional area where we've been working, and some of the most conservative politicians. So I was sitting between one of the conservative independents, who has been in power for decades, literally, and ...
Anthony 01:55
So we should say his name for Australians too - Bob Katter.
Amanda 01:57
Bob Katter, who is quite a character.
Anthony 02:00
From the north of Queensland.
Amanda 02:01
Yeah,, actually my home electorate, where I grew up in far north Queensland. So my family's in Atherton.
Anthony 02:09
That's right.
Amanda 02:10
And on the other side of me was the Federal Minister for Resources who's very pro coal. So very strong focus on keeping the coal industry going.
Anthony 02:20
That was Keith Pitt.
Amanda 02:22
Yeah, Keith Pitt. And then we had a Labour senator. And then we also had Professor Bronwyn Fredericks, who's a First Nations professor who works at the University, who I actually knew from 20 years ago when I worked in Aboriginal health. So that was really nice to see her. So very different characters on the panel. And a very excited audience because it was the first time that the ABC had done the program on the road post COVID. In an area that is at the heart of the energy debate in Australia right now. We've been working with the council, there on actually starting to develop a 10 year roadmap as to how they're going to manage change in the energy sector.
Anthony 02:59
This is Gladstone?
Amanda 03:00
This is Gladstone, yep. But it's an area where there's been a lot of contention, like Central Queensland, that region, saw actual conflict and violence before the previous federal election, just three years before, [with a] clash between pro and anti [coal actions]. There's a big of mine called the Carmichael mine that's being pushed by Adani, and it came to blows just before the last federal election. So it was still a very contentious issue. There's a lot of renewable energy projects planned for the region and a lot of uncertainty about the future of the coal industry. And this was a big issue going into the election. So it was pretty tense onstage. But what did I learn? Well, it was the first time I'd been on national television like that, in that kind of format. So it was pretty - I learnt about what that means!
Anthony 03:52
Yeah. What does it mean?
Amanda 03:58
I think the lead up to it was really interesting, like how people have got opinions about how you should present and how you get your messaging, right, and things like that. And that was really different for me, because I'm used to working with people in a very emergent and authentic way of just responding to what comes up. So I had to kind of resist the urge to, you know, craft a message because I think that's actually the problem with how a lot of media is happening now. So how to be present and respond, and just had to hold myself together in a very pressured situation with people I knew were going to have a go.
Anthony 04:37
I couldn't agree more. In a sense. I felt like what you managed to do, in managing to do that, I felt like how you did it was that you kept grounded to the fact you are bringing other voices in to the sphere.
Amanda 04:52
Yeah, that's quite intuitive, actually. I think it's a challenge when you do this work because my background is facilitation.It's not for me to have an opinion. And so to be asked to be on a national stage during an election, and sort of feeling uneasy about kind of being put on the stage as an expert. And then I got all these really supportive messages beforehand that were from people in regional Australia we'd worked with who were so excited that I was going to be on stage because I could share with Australia what was really going on in regional Australia, and that I had that trust of people to share and to pass on that message. And also, the feedback afterwards was immense gratitude from so many people saying, finally someone saying something that we've been wanting to say or wanting to hear, and nobody's been saying it, thank you so much, From people I didn't even know. So it was really humbling. And that was the thing, I had a responsibility. There's a lot of people you don't get to speak for themselves, including people I've worked with overseas who are getting hit by climate impacts in places like the Philippines. I feel I have a responsibility to share that information, because I wasn't hearing anybody else share those messages that actually regional Australia is doing it tough, actually they're looking for opportunities about how to manage this change. This doesn't have to be the end of the world, but they need to be looked after. And they've got ideas about how to do that. And they want to be involved in the conversation.
Anthony 06:18
This is what you've found there as well in Gladstone with the work you've been doing with them?
Amanda 06:24
Yeah. We had a report come out a few weeks after that. And it was about two weeks before the election. It's called What Regions Need on the Path to Net Zero. And it wasn't something we set out to do. It was basically, we'd just been asked over the last 12 months, like the whole situation in energy has changed. And there's been increased tension, but also interest in having conversations about what does this mean for regions. So I realized for the year leading up to the election, there's all this talk about energy and climate. But I wasn't hearing the points that I was hearing in places like Gladstone or Townsville, or Latrobe Valley, or the Hunter or Northern Territory, places that are really at the forefront of where these changes are hitting. And so I just really felt this need to pull all that together from what we'd heard from across all of those different activities. We ended up speaking to over 500 people over the last year, like deeply engaged with them. And just summarize and say, look, here are the issues. And here are the ideas people have. And here are the risks and opportunities, depending on how we go about this as a country - what we've got to win and lose. Then things just really took off again, like it was crazy. We had 12 live radio interviews, four television interviews, 330 I think articles written in the first 12 hours after the report came out. This is two weeks before the election, where I thought this will get lost in election stuff. But everyone just went bang, this is exactly what we need to be talking about as a country.
Anthony 08:02
So how interesting that what wasn't in the media that prompted you to write the report, then is everywhere.
Amanda 08:09
Yeah, it's everywhere.
Anthony 08:10
And how do you make sense of that? What changed? Why did they have an appetite, seemingly all of a sudden?
Amanda 08:18
Well, I think timing. You don't get to control when people are interested. But I think it's because we've got, you know, for the last how many years now, seven years, the whole Trumpian era and just things have gotten increasingly polarized, everything's always positioned as black and white and the media kind of feed off that positioning things in a really simple way. And I think in the lead up to the election, people were sick of that. They were just like, in the zeitgeist, people were genuinely like why isn't anyone having a sensible conversation? Why does it get so polarized and so ridiculous, that we don't even know who to trust anymore? Because everyone's exaggerating on both sides of the debate. So to just come in and go this is what people on the ground are saying. It touched into what people know. And it made it more complex. But that was a relief for people. It's like let's put some color and detail around this and talk, and just ground it in reality. And people have been saying it's refreshing and authentic. And that's what's appealing to them. It's a different kind of story about what's going on.
Anthony 09:21
So interesting. Is the vibe similar in those communities that you're working with, in that sense? Are they welcoming that sense of we don't have to be pitted against each other we can actually come together and learn more about these transitions and situations, and how we can navigate them?
Amanda 09:43
So the conversation has really changed, like just probably in the last 12 to 18 months, there's been a big difference. So to give you an example in April of 2021. So just over a year ago we held a summit in central Queensland on energy futures. And the reason we held it was because industry, state and local governments, environment groups, unions, were all saying the same thing, which is, things are moving fast in the regions, there's no plan. Nobody can talk about the fact that this is changing, that if we don't get ahead of this and just at least have a conversation and figure out what we're going to do, it's either going to hit us really hard, or we're going to miss out on opportunities. And after trying to convince all of them to go, well, why don't you lead a conversation? We can help you with that. Everyone was saying no, politically, it's too hard. We can't be the ones to be starting this conversation. So we as The Next Economy went well, what if we hosted a summit and just put you all on stage to say exactly what you're saying behind closed doors? Would that make it politically safe for you, if you're all saying the same, because you are all saying the same thing? So we did that. And it was amazing, it was so amazing.
Amanda 10:55
In the lead up to it, we spoke to about 50 people. And it was really quite negative. People were like, who are you, they were skeptical of what our agenda was, they were worried about who else was going to be in the room, they were worried about being blamed or victimized. And I was like, oh, my God, if this is what they'll bring into the room, we're totally screwed. But it was the opposite. It was kind of people venting and learning to trust us. So by the time we got in the room, there was this excitement. And this is during COVID, too. So people hadn't been in a room with each other. So there was nervousness. But this real genuine, oh, my god, we're doing this, like we can actually have a conversation about it. And women in particular, like the number of women who came up to me and said, thank you so much for just making this happen, like making it safe enough that we can just have a practical conversation about the work that needs to be done.
Amanda 11:48
And we kept the politicians out of the room. So we could do that and just framed it as, what is the work we need to do to support the region through this massive change that's already happening, so you can see some benefits, but you also manage the risks? That's all it was. Just taking all the heat out of it. And I can just see people relax into it, because we were focused on really practical issues. That was like just over 12 months ago, you know, and now, we've had an election that has completely shifted everything. And we've got a government that's like, let's do it all now immediately. And regions have been like, since the election, the number of councils in coal regions that are contacting us saying, right, we need a transition plan, how do you help us? Like what do we need to think about? It's like, suddenly, the space and the permission is there for people to talk about what they wanted to talk about for years, but have been too scared to. But also just to start focusing on just getting on with it. And people - there's a joy. Like I hear the joy and relief in people's voices, who beforehand were very closed and skeptical. It's just, it's so unbelievable how much the political context has changed everything. I mean, there's a lot of dangers, but something really fundamental has shifted in Australia.
Anthony 13:03
Yeah, yeah. And we did see it in the election too, of course. With a groundswell of participation.
Amanda 13:11
Yes.
Anthony 13:12
Firstly. Then that happened to result in the independents who are carrying that flag of, let's get involved in these sorts of ways that's changed, or played a big hand in changing, those things too. And I was just amazed to walk in and have you talk about the extent of interest. Like it's coming from those councils, but not only.
Amanda 13:36
Yeah, so completely unexpectedly since the election ... So we got the report out before the election. And even before the election, we were getting emails from people very senior in the federal government, in the public service, who were asking for briefings. They were just saying, can you come and tell us what it is we need the next government to do? It's like, federal government has been completely closed off to most groups for years, and to be actually invited. We weren't seeking the meeting.
Anthony 14:13
When did this happen?
Amanda 14:14
This was just before the election.
Anthony 14:16
After Q&A?
Amanda 14:18
This was after Q&A. I think Q&A was about three weeks before the election. And then we put out the report a week or two after that, and that was just two weeks ... ugh ... sorry ...
Anthony 14:30
The dog's going to eat the recorder.
Amanda 14:31
Our labrador's come to say hello. Dexter, on your bed! ...
Amanda 14:42
Yeah, so I'm trying to remember the timing. So I think Q&A was like the 21st of April. So a month before the election, because really the election was the 21st of May. And the report came out two weeks before the election. So we were already getting requests for meetings then. And then after the election, it's just snowballed. Like the new ministers are asking for meetings out of the blue. Partly it was because there was so much media. So there's a lot of senior public servants who heard me on radio and said, you make sense, we're trying to get our heads around this, can you come and brief us? Yeah, so that whole art of going through the process of listening to people, but capturing it in a way that people can make sense of it, and it's accessible, and written, which somehow gives it more legitimacy for some reason, is really powerful. And then creating a space for a conversation where people can ask questions and start to dream and think, what if? What could be?
Anthony 15:42
To me, we've already touched on so many of the key barriers, you talked about those social ones of how can I stick my neck out in this scenario, and even if we did it'd go to pot. The layers of it. And then the legitimation ones as well, where it's another form of safety, where it's safe for those people to engage. That's so interesting.
Anthony 16:03
I want to double back a bit, before we go on there, Amanda, to perhaps where none of this may have happened at all. In that the last time we met in person and spoke was over the dinner table. And we happened to be both in a similar situation. But let's just run with yours here. You were at a point where The Next Economy had started, but it was almost going to run aground. And you were at a very, very tough personal point, because you were getting good offers that harked back to your background, to what you hadn't been doing. Tell us the story. How did it come to that? And how did it get through?
Amanda 17:03
Yeah, so I started doing the work in Australia around looking at regions with ties to fossil fuels and looking at it as an economic development challenge and opportunity. Back in 2014, I started getting asked to do presentations on what is involved in managing transition or just transitions. And back then most of my work was my day job, in international development and economic development in places like Fiji, Pacific and Asia. So the work I was doing in Australia started off just as a sort of a side business, sort of a favor to the climate movement. Because I was volunteering, helping them with volunteer management strategies and facilitating strategic sessions. But it was a side thing.
Amanda 17:52
And I realized very quickly, because the politics around coal just got really, really nasty around that 2015, 2016, 2017 mark, and I realized that things were going backwards instead of forwards. And there was a need for an organization to be focused specifically on working with regional communities, around the economic aspects and a planning kind of approach to it. Because at that stage, everything was focused very much in a climate lens. We just win the climate debate and everything will change
Anthony 18:22
Yes, totally.
Amanda 18:22
And I was like, no, you've got to bring people with you. So I set up The Next Economy, and we launched officially at the beginning of 2018. And before then I'd had philanthropists saying, okay, yeah, if you had DGR charitable status, we would fund you. But as soon as I set up the organization the funding just didn't come. I think we raised about 20 grand that first year. And I was trying to do consulting work to then be able to subsidize the work in the regions. And the regions were starting to cry out for it, but I just couldn't get any funding for it. And government wouldn't pay for it either.
Anthony 18:58
It was just this sort of expectation that, I don't know, impact investment will step in or some other thing that's new and fresh?
Amanda 19:09
I think it was more that people saw it just as a technical issue and that if government just did its job, everything would flow from there. And the market would take over because it just made sense that renewables would be cheaper, and that would push out coal. So it was this kind of logic to it that we didn't need to worry about that as a social issue or ground up planning approach.
Anthony 19:29
We were hearing that a lot at the time, I remember.
Amanda 19:31
Yeah. And at that stage, everyone thought Labour would win the last election, which was in May 2019. And so a lot of people said to me, oh Labour will get in, they've got a just transition policy, it'll be fine. And I just didn't, I wasn't feeling it. But I was like, there's no money. I was getting headhunted to go back and do international development jobs for way more money than I was running the organisation for. My partner at the time was like, what are you doing? And I was like, but it's needed. So I said to the board, it's like, I know it's needed. I know this is important, but I can't afford to keep going. My partner's business was bit rough at the time, too.
Amanda 20:09
So I was negotiating two job offers the week before the 2019 election. And then the 2019 election happened, which was a landslide to the coalition government, that was very clear that they were on a pro-coal platform, and an anti climate change platform. And I just went, I, I turned on the news to see how the election results were on the Saturday night at 8:45. And it was already declared as a landslide. And I was like, there's no way I'm walking away from this right now. I don't care if there's no money, I just have to keep going. The next morning, I started getting text messages from philanthropists going, ah, I get what you're talking, can we fund you now?
Anthony 20:48
Amazing.
Amanda 20:49
So the week that we were supposed to be having a board meeting to wrap up the organization, the last week of the financial year, we ended up with 100 grand in the bank, in a week.
Anthony 20:58
Amazing. The amount of times I hear this too. Even Wooleen Station over in the west was, the banks were going to foreclose and then Australian Story aired in that instance and people threw money from everywhere. They sent cheques in the mail. And that's the only reason they're there. And now it's going gangbusters and a real trial trailblazer for more, but the amount of times I hear that it came to the last thread.
Amanda 21:19
Yeah.
Anthony 21:20
But you had this sense. And of course, in that election, those communities were held up as the reason why, and pilloried in many ways from parts of the rest of the country. And again, you were able to step into that breach and say, hang on, that's not, a) that's not helpful, and b) it's not even reflective of the reality on the ground. And the backing started to come in. So what happened next?
Amanda 21:47
So the other thing that happened just straight after the election was I think that week, I got asked to write an op ed, my first ever op ed for The Guardian. And it went viral like it went international, there was so much interest in I think it was the most commented piece post election. And the piece was, you know, there were parts of - everyone was blaming Queensland, the state that I'm in, which is one of the major coal producing regions, where there was this tension and conflict before the election around the Adani mine. And I just wrote the Op Ed saying, it's way more complex than that, you know, you're not looking at all the other reasons that regions are really doing a tough and they're not being listened to, and just calling for Quexit at the time was, you know, removing Queensland from the rest of Australia. It's just, it's just no wonder people feel like they're being, you know, the culture wars are happening. It's like the arrogance of this, this whole situation, you're not listening. And then all of a sudden, I just got all these speaking gigs. So I think in five months, that second half of that year, I ended up speaking to something like 12,000 people live in five months, and most of that was in person. All of a sudden, there was like, how do we get our heads around this? How have we gotten it so wrong? What do we need to do next?
Amanda 23:07
And some real soul searching for the environment movement as well. But that led to some really great outcomes, like starting to talk about, you need to bring people along on the journey. And we need to be talking about this as a technical issue, but also as an economic and a social issue. And there's been some really great work done since then, like Beyond Zero Emissions' Million Jobs Plan. And, yeah, there's just, there's been some great work done, which is started to see where people can come together around a shared objective.
Anthony 23:36
Indeed. And then what you found is, in the last 12 months you're referring to where it's just gone to a whole other level, that you've managed to double staff and so forth. But now you almost need to do that again. So share that dilemma? How life is changing for you, I suppose, as much personally as anything, but also, of course, how you go about doing the work, like responding to the call that you've worked so hard to sort of ferment?
Amanda 24:26
Yeah, there's a few different parts to it. So, yeah, that going from just showing up and responding to whatever's needed, and realizing, you know, gathered a lot of information and knowledge around the energy sector, that I didn't know I had. So it was easy, you know, there were two of us and we could just kind of respond to whatever was there. But now, there's seven bodies about four full time equivalents. And realizing that this work hasn't really been done before, like the combination of a community development approach to it, a social change, and community organizing aspect, like the political aspects of the work, understanding the economy, and what the possibilities are to use the disruptions that are happening to build a better economy that actually works for people and planet, what does that actually mean? So bringing that alternative economics, feminist economics thinking, and the climate lens across that as well, understanding the energy sector, it's a pretty unique set of skills and knowledge that are brought together that's emerged out of the work.
Amanda 25:35
So trying to find people who can, it's almost like - a staff member said the other day, I feel like I'm going through an apprenticeship. It's like, I know some bits of this, but there's other bits I don't. And the way of realizing that so much of the success has been how I show up in the world, physically, emotionally, makes or breaks the work. So the amount of work I've done on myself, to be able to stand in a room of 150 people who are freaking out about coal closure is not the stuff anyone ever talks about. It's the personal work in therapy I've done to confront, you know, my own issues or traumas or fears.
Anthony 26:15
Triggers.
Amanda 26:15
Triggers. To be able to recognize that. The physical work to actually be able to breathe and stand there and hold a whole room full of - the energetics of it actually has a physical impact on you. And that's what I noticed with q&a, too, it's like holding so many people. I'm staying really present with that. So meditation practice and things like that, and body practices to be able to just stay present to it. And that's the same with staff like that. And so how do I teach that to people? It's not a normal workplace thing. But it's, you know, it's how do you work with your own energy? How do you work with your own emotions, not to try and push them aside? Because the more comfortable you are with who you are, it actually has that herd mentality effect, it actually calms everybody else down.
Amanda 27:03
So that's been a really interesting thing that I probably wouldn't have thought of, until having people to work with they're like, how do you do this? I'm like, I don't know! And then at the same time, the workload has just exploded, we've got all these ministers calling us, I'm getting really high profile speaking gigs, there's media every week, we've got massive projects we're finishing now, we've got another project that we want to start that everyone's all of a sudden going, yes, we want to do that. And we'll fund it. So normally, what would take six to nine months to get agreement on, everyone's like, bang, yes, let's do this now. It's like, okay! So trying to manage the capacity.
Anthony 27:41
And you can see how those skills you've just described, they come into play, I can only imagine, to be still and present through all this demand and change, if you like. And then how do you manage it in a, you know, just a logistical sense? What does the organization do now, to respond? In terms of how it resources [itself]? Can you keep up with this? And do more people need to be doing it?
Amanda 28:46
Oh to be honest, I think we all feel like we're drowning in the organization at the moment.
Anthony 28:50
Yeah. This is why I ask. Because as much as you say, you know, I stand up in front of 150 people where coal mines are happening, like I sort of almost want to take a moment to ground in that reality, to feel that tension for a moment, with people's livelihoods and communities and places on the line. And, and in a sense, you know, this is part of what, you're grappling with yourselves through this as well. So it's, I really sort of want to, I feel the gravity of that, I suppose.
Amanda 29:18
Yeah.
Anthony 29:20
How do you feel?
Amanda 29:21
Um, well, I think that that whole decision about, you know, I can't do this anymore. We just need to shut down the organization. There was a real surrendering in that process. And I think since then ... yeah, it's stressful. Like, it's stressful when we've got deadlines, and there's lots going on. And probably not managing as well as I normally would, particularly this week! But at the same time, I think because there has been no, there hasn't been enough resources to, and no time, like I have to surrender to just being able to show up and be enough in that moment, and trust. Like it's not my job to have all the answers, my job is to bring people together. And for them to figure it out. Who do we need in the room? And I trust people, I genuinely think if you get the right people in the room and the right mix of people, you give people a chance to explore, you give them right information and a framework to think things through. Amazing things happen.
Amanda 30:21
So it doesn't feel like the pressure is on me to have all the answers - or the organization. And that takes the pressure off. But also realizing like, there's no choice, like there's a choiceless choice in this. Like, what we're facing is so massive on so many levels, not just on the climate, but increasing economic instability, social unrest if we don't get this, right, I don't feel like I have a choice not to do it. I just have to show up and offer whatever I can because, how can, like ... it feels irresponsible not to.
Anthony 30:54
Yeah.
Amanda 30:54
So that's all I do. It's like I walk into some rooms, like I was in the Carbon Market Institute's 10 year symposium with a roomful of finance people. And I just went, I don't know anything, you know, I don't know what, like, what am I going to say to these people? And there were heads of departments and, you know, heads of some of the big consulting firms and stuff. And I went, well, they asked me here, they want to know what I know. So I'll just speak to that, even though it's a completely different language and context to what they were talking about - complex safeguard mechanisms, and finance talk. But it was amazing how people came alive around it and were like, yes, this is the bit that's been missing. Can you come and talk to me more about? So I guess I get positive reinforcement by going, genuinely, this is what I know, this is what I don't know. If that's of use, let's keep going. And that seems to be working.
Anthony 31:40
Oh, it's been striking me all the way along how you talked about, you know, going into those communities, and you don't need to pretend you know what you don't know, you're going to learn partly and so your focus is in what you're bringing in, in other aspects, your presence, and then the learning journey can take place, and we can connect and then that applies right through the line to how you're running the organization, to how you are in these contexts. And it's interesting then, that it has such a - that it works. It reaches people. And I feel like that's the transcendent, almost human level, if you can say that. I mean, I can speak to from part of my background in business and finance. That's sort of why I looked elsewhere. Because I wasn't finding it. I couldn't bring it. I didn't know enough to bring it. But it's so interesting if we channel - and I guess that's what a lot of our peers are finding too in their work. And we talked a few before off air today. Others who are working in that space too, of vision and possibility.
Amanda 32:48
But grounded possibility.
Anthony 32:50
Yes.
Amanda 32:51
It's interesting. A few years ago - I just had a flashback as you were talking - at the Eco Cities conference when we did that panel.
Anthony 32:59
Oh yeah, 2017.
Amanda 33:05
And I remember after that presentation, this woman came up to me, and was like, Oh, you're just so nice. And so authentic. You made me cry. It's so powerful. And I had this whole bodily reaction to her going, what does everyone keep saying I'm nice. Like, what I just said, is really smart. Like why aren't people telling me I'm smart? There you go. Insight into my insecurities!
Anthony 33:30
It's good. This is real.
Amanda 33:31
It just kept happening. And it often was women reflecting that back - honesty, authenticity, they were using words like authenticity, genuine, lovely, nice, real. These were the words - it was personality based stuff - grounded. And that's the difference. That's actually what is shifting and opening people up to a different possibility is who I am as a person, and that is part of it. I shouldn't like, this isn't just about the head anymore, like people are craving, in their hearts a different reality. And if there are people showing up, like Morag Gamble we were talking about, who's so embodied and lives what she does, in a really grounded way and can speak from that place, but also connects it to what's going on at a global scale and deep bodies of knowledge and wisdom and traditions. And she knows what she's talking about, but will own what she knows and what she doesn't. That's the basis of trust. And that's what's been missing in a world of Trumps and celebrities. And, you know, it's that kindness and that genuineness and that groundedness sort of, it's speaking to a really deep level in people, and they're craving it - and real connection.
Anthony 34:52
Yeah. You're still worried in that sense, though about timescale. I mean, I don't want to say it, you know, lost time - wrong frame, but, you know what we mean. That still concerns you. And so how do you square - I mean, you've probably already answered it I suppose. It's repeat.
Amanda 35:20
Oh. No.
Anthony 35:20
But how do you square that?
Amanda 35:22
It's not much lost time I'm worried about, you look at any of the projections around climate change or other environmental indicators, soil degradation, peak phosphorus, acidification, the oceans, you just look at anything. Water!
Anthony 35:38
Yes. and switch then to the economic systems breakdown. It's everywhere.
Amanda 35:43
And social. And you know, democracy is going through change. It's whether you know, it's been under attack, and is in crisis. But at the same time, there's this groundswell of people wanting to do things differently. So where's that going to lead and that's not necessarily going to lead anywhere, positive or negative, but it's messy, I just see the next couple of decades been really messy and not a smooth ride. And I go through periods probably a few times a year, where it gets overwhelming. And I've learned to just take myself offline for a couple of days, and grieve. And literally, like go really deep into seeing what is and grieving the biodiversity loss. And like, I say, biodiversity loss - I'll watch something, koalas will come up, and I'll just start bawling my eyes out, it'll just trigger it.
Amanda 36:32
Or thinking, multiple times a year seeing super typhoons hit the village that I used to live in, in the Philippines and knowing what that means to people who are already struggling with poverty. This is not a theoretical thing for me, this is like people I love and who are not recovering and don't have the services and the systems are crumbling around them. Sri Lanka, I used to live in seeing what's happening there, like all of this is connected.
Anthony 36:59
This is here now.
Amanda 37:01
It's here. It's not into the future. And this is only going to get worse. So yeah, I do I go through periods. But I do it consciously now. I was in a meditation retreat recently, where I ended up just crying at the moon, because I was - I'm sounding hippy to everyone! But I just, there's a point you have to let that you have to process it. And then I'll take myself bushwalking. And I'll go to a festival. And will realize that also at the same time simultaneously, in a complete contradiction, there is so much beauty and promise in the world. And there's so much that is still working, and people can find a way through if they're given the opportunity and the support and the resources to do it. And we don't know how this is going to play out. These triggers could - we never know when that trigger is for something amazing to happen, where we get the most women and independents and progressive and First Nations people into Parliament ever. So that's to stay open to possibility in every situation. Whether it's for the next economy, communities we're working with, or a national or global level, just showing up and seeing what happens and being curious.
Anthony 38:15
Totally. And I feel like the same applies then to people who might say, wasting our time. It's all over type of thing. That there's undue certainty in that too.
Amanda 38:26
Yeah, absolutely.
Anthony 38:27
It just comes back to it, to turn up.
Amanda 38:29
There's a really great film by a guy called Denis Liu years ago, about 20 years ago called Green Gold. I think I told you about this. Yeah. He's a filmmaker and basically saw, China decided to regenerate a plateau that had been desertified. And, you know, put the effort in and then let nature take over. And it was amazingly quickly how quickly the these underground water systems and springs come back to life, that hadn't been flowing for hundreds of years. And, we don't know if we give nature a chance, how quickly it can actually start to grow new life again, problem is we're just not giving enough of a chance.
Anthony 39:12
Oh in a way it's a metaphor for people. But of course, it's not because we're nature to we work the same way. That there's a there's a level of functionality that we talk about, you know, in these terms, ecosystems, level of functionality, once that's restored, the self organizing nature of it kicks in.
Amanda 39:33
Momentum.
Anthony 39:34
There it is. And this is, I mean, it's funny, all of a sudden to catch ourselves in Australia, feeling like we're showing the world something now wonderful, but that's the way it feels here right now. And not only here, of course, but certainly here at the moment in the ways we've been talking about that it's started to kick in. That levels just sort of tipped over.
Amanda 39:56
Yeah. It's like we're allowed to be - think big again, we're allowed to celebrate the good stuff. And for me, actually, somebody was asking me post election how it felt. And I was like, I feel like not just that I can breathe again. But I didn't realize how much shame I was carrying. Because I've worked internationally connected to people, I actually had been feeling really ashamed.
Anthony 40:17
Yeah, me too.
Amanda 40:18
And I felt like I could put my head up again, as an Australian and say, great. We've got this, we can make this work.
Anthony 40:23
And have a look, this worked for us. Maybe something can work for you, too.
Amanda 40:26
Yeah.
Anthony 40:30
So some of the feeling then, as you look back on all that work, so far, in all the different places that you're referred to - what have been some of the key findings, or what are the things that really stood out to you?
Amanda 40:48
Specifically around the coal work or?
Anthony 40:51
Well, take that where you will.
Amanda 40:58
So, yeah, I guess I'll reflect on some of the changes, I think, happening at the moment. So talked about, you know, this space for people to, to think about what if and I think the people are accepting now - more people are accepting climate change is a thing - between the fires and the floods and a whole lot of other stuff that's happened. I think there's some good possibilities, and that people are hearing about economic opportunities, and that people talk about renewable superpower. The flip side of that is I'm concerned that there's also some risks, even in doing the work we need to do on climate change. So in not getting it right around social justice issues.
Amanda 41:44
So just to give you an example, I know there's a lot of pressure on the current government to get transmission lines upgraded, because it's the only way we're going to get the renewable energy system to work. It's massive. The amount of land that's going to take, and the amount of land that needs to be cleared, competing with agriculture. Communities already starting to push back. Whereas we could be building an energy system that addresses a whole lot of issues and addresses economic justice issues as well. Like, why aren't we seeing every community that's dependent on diesel in remote Australia, like First Nations, already on solar? Why aren't we seeing decentralized energy systems that are actually much more robust, that actually can return money more directly to communities? Because we've gone so far, we need to move so fast, we're just going to pay these big companies to do it on a large scale, there's a missed opportunity there.
Amanda 42:36
So I think this is, that's what I'm noticing is like, there is a crack that has opened where we could be talking about, well what could this look like? And there's a kind of democracy like people wanting to get more involved in local decision making. And the whole election is, like, boosted that interested in more people like, oh, maybe we can get involved, maybe we can get organized. But there's also threats to that. People pushing back or just rejecting if this isn't being done well, if people can't see how it's benefiting them, we'll just end up with a different set of problems.
Anthony 43:08
Yeah.
Amanda 43:09
And also the fact we're probably going into an economic downturn. It's what they're saying,
Anthony 43:15
In those, in the old system terms anyway.
Amanda 43:18
Yeah, in the old system terms.
Anthony 43:18
I'm so conscious of this.
Amanda 43:19
I know. Well, it's like, I remember this conversation I had, I probably shouldn't name him. But somebody very senior who does economic modeling for the government. And he was doing a presentation, we're in Emerald, and he was saying, interest rates are gonna go up, this is back in February, March or something. Interest rates are just going to have to go up - we're just going to have to slow down the economy. And I said to him, afterwards, we're at the airport. So just let me get this straight. The graphs that you put up there as to why prices are going up were for fuel, and for food, and essential equipment, things that you can't actually choose not to buy. Interest rates are designed to slow the economy down, if people are just spending a lot of money out in the economy, and there's too much money in the economy and we need to pull that back. That's not the case here. Prices are high because there's actual scarcity of things.
Anthony 44:15
To say nothing of housing.
Amanda 44:17
Housing, as well. Housing was one of the other things. So these are essential things that people can't choose not to buy. And you're gonna put up interest rates? That's just gonna cause like a whole world of pain. Because people can't not buy this stuff. So all you're doing is creating ...
Anthony 44:36
Exactly. It's not the appropriate tool.
Amanda 44:39
And he just went well, that's the tool we've got.
Anthony 44:40
Exactly!
Amanda 44:41
And I just went, but why? And he's like, well, that's a big question. And then we had to get on the plane!
Anthony 44:47
Ah, what a pity. It is a big question, but that's the one we need to go at.
Amanda 44:51
Yeah.
Anthony 44:51
Because even downturn - and hung parliament - this language needs to shift with it, no? And I'm very conscious in economic terms. What downturn means. I mean, I like to think hung Parliament's just basically democracy. It's basically parliament where people talk to each other. So we could leave that one alone for the moment. But certainly economic downturn in those old terms means, you know, recession and job losses and then people can't pay for those houses, so sure it's disaster. But what if we chart a different set of metrics and structures in transition?
Anthony 45:36
And sure, it's gonna be messy. There's all that. Nothing's clear cut, but just, I'm trying to search for what's going to hold us, what can we trust, through a process like that, where we might end up in a, you know, conventionally termed recession or downturn, but know that actually the things that we value most - or need most, start there perhaps - our eye is on that prize. That's our north star. Not the employment rate or the ...
Amanda 46:07
And the employment rate isn't even indicative of the employment rate anyway.
Anthony 46:10
Oh, my God!
Amanda 46:11
Yeah, you can work one hour a week as your contract and be counted as employed. And you have to be actively seeking work to be counted as unemployed.
Anthony 46:20
Yeah, we've got like the best rate right now. And it's terrible.
Amanda 46:23
Well it's only 60% participation rate. So that's only 60% of the people who could be working or even looking, or in employment.
Anthony 46:30
So there's all that. So what do you think about how we can - the language I guess, of transition? I know you think about this a lot. And you've experienced it on the ground, too, with what helps to go about this work and what doesn't. What have you come to?
Amanda 46:48
Well, what's really interesting is communities that would be normally considered very conservative politically and economically, are asking me questions like, but isn't there another way of doing this? What about circular economy principles? Oh we heard about this income thing that everybody just gets paid. Or, citizens assemblies to make decisions about things? Or what about food resilience? We don't have any local food here. And they're asking all of these radical questions.
Anthony 47:24
Well, formally radical.
Amanda 47:27
Yeah, they're not radical. But often they're put in that kind of ...
Anthony 47:30
Exactly.
Amanda 47:31
And I think COVID has opened a space where the government did step in and pay everyone and people had in those initial lockdown days a different experience.
Anthony 47:43
Well, they paid most. Let's spare a thought for the muso's, for a start.
Amanda 47:47
Yeah, yes, yeah. But for most people who had never had, like, wouldn't see themselves as welfare recipients, even though a lot of people in the mainstream do get different kinds of payments, and that's sort of invisible to them - so that's what I mean, you go down this rabbit hole, you start asking these questions. So making, I think that what we've found is if you take a strengths based approach, so an issue comes up, people go oh, the issue here is whatever - food production. Okay, so let's just talk about where your food comes from. What do you produce here? Who controls where that food comes from? How's it transported? You break it down to that micro place-based level, people can start to go, well just a minute - our dairy industry actually started as a coop. Oh, did you realize that coops are actually experiencing a resurgence all around the world? Why don't we do that here? Community own energy ... ?
Amanda 48:39
So if you start with what is the actual issue in this place? What are the resources we've got to draw on? And what's the power we need to build around making this happen? It sort of really switches people from blaming government or being quite passive to suddenly going, let's just do it. And really quickly things can start to happen. But that needs support, and there's not enough support out there for the processes that can help people step through that. And then when they've got an idea, how do they step through a process to getting that to reality?
Anthony 49:11
And this is - I mean you talked alot on q&a about government support. So, and policy, I imagine, and finance, it's the lot?
Amanda 49:18
Yeah. Well, the fundamental question is, what are the structures and processes that we need to set up that enable people to take action? I think we sometimes get so personal and blame or put on the individual or put on the government instead of going, what are the systems that enable resources and information to flow? And to make it easy for people recognizing that people starting from completely different places, and some people have a lot more barriers in front of them than others, so will need more support.
Anthony 49:54
I'm about to step into and host a regenerative ... well, a conference hosted by a regenerative agriculture organization. And I just qualify that because it's a holistic take. It's a systemic take. So it brings in money and finance and energy and the lot. And I'm curious, I mean, you were just talking about food there in this context where you've been working with communities with energy transitions, but it's all interlinked, obviously.
Amanda 50:23
Oh yeah!
Anthony 50:23
And I noted, there's a transitioning Australia's food system project or something you've been involved in?
Amanda 50:29
Oh, we've started to look at, from The Next Economy point of view, because food keeps coming up. So we've been sort of trying to look at, well, who is doing what in the food system and agriculture? What are the practices around land? So it could be conservation, it could be carbon farming, it could be First Nations lead land management. So all the different ways things that people are trying to do that meet our objectives of practices that are actually increasing social wellbeing. So it's, you know, there's a lot of problems in mainstream agriculture around how we treat workers and farmers and you know, all that in the space. There's still slave labor in Australia happening right now.
Anthony 51:09
Yeah, basically.
Amanda 51:11
So it's addressing the social thing. It's actually creating a decent living for people that they can live off what they do their work, or supported to live through that. It's regenerative in terms of the natural systems. So how do we regenerate not just conserve, but regenerate land and water, and biodiversity? And its climate safe and climate resilient. So what do we need to do not just to mitigate impacts of climate but actually create resilience because climate impacts are already starting to happen? So we're just trying to map out all of those different practices and who's doing what.
Anthony 52:05
This is so interesting, because even Adam at RCS Australia, this conference host, was meeting the Queensland Farmers Federation just yesterday, and they're talking about energy transition.
Amanda 52:20
Yep.
Anthony 52:22
And you know, can we call it a mainstream institution?
Amanda 52:25
Yeah, it's the peak body for farmers in Queensland, yeah.
Anthony 52:31
And so are you, I guess this is some of what you'll be looking at - as to how this mapping will interrelate and the possibilities that might come from that. So in that sense, you know, when you talk about the name of your organization as The Next Economy, it's far from just ...
Amanda 52:45
Oh yeah, it's not just energy, no. I mean, we've kind of got sucked into that space, because nobody was doing anything on energy. And then that's where the demand has been. But every time we're called in, we end up talking about food and housing and transport and how these different sectors - so really the the work that we've been doing is how do you reduce and absorb emissions across all sectors in a way that creates social and economic benefits, but also is regenerating? So not just, you know, environment paying the cost of that.
Anthony 53:15
Indeed, yep. I wonder what your thoughts are on this: out of the election result [with the independents] - that stemmed from Cathy McGowan's experience in Indi and the book she wrote, speaking of the value of books earlier, the conference that then came out of that - and then one year later, a transformed Parliament already - though that still feels like the starting point, in many ways for what communities have got a taste of and again, more understanding and trust in what can be done. In some ways that election result was in spite of the mainstream media landscape. As much as you talked about the unexpected and beautiful response that you're finding. I started having this thought that we needed a similar impetus in community in media, basically, in independent media, if you will, that it's bubbling up everywhere ...
Amanda 54:11
Yeah.
Anthony 54:12
But it needs the impetus to actually rise to be a prevalent source and a more constructive presence in the world. Do you feel that or something else? Your reflections on the media space?
Amanda 54:26
Hmm. Well the media space is actually like a lot of these things that sort of remain on the edges. And we've been thinking about that in terms of theory of change. So I've been very much influenced by Foucault. And thinking about, why don't things change, why do things stay on the fringes and not come in to the center? And it's generally because you've got systems and structures in place, with people who basically maintain their power by maintaining the systems and structures in a certain way. And that system kind of has a life of its own that it can - it's designed to paper over when the cracks appear, they can repair it really quickly. We're now in the stage now where that's not working anymore. I think you can safely say that over the last five to 10 years, whether it's capitalism, democracy, governance systems, those cracks are not getting fixed, they're getting papered over. And so there's a reaction of people in power to try and consolidate that power even more. And that's where you get the kind of autocratic kind of responses that you see around the world, strong men of the world cracking down. But it's also creating spaces for things like what we saw with the progressive independents coming through.
Amanda 55:39
So my question is, and this is the role of The Next Economy - how do we take the things that are, offer us a different way of being and living in the world, that creates different kinds of economic relationships, and that values things differently? Can we bring those things in from the fringes? Can we use those cracks as they open up to plant seeds and grow something so that as the wall starts to crumble, there's actually something in its place? I think that's the question for all of us. And there are, we can talk about coops is kind of fringe, but there's some massive cops in the world. Our superannuation system is based on membership, I wouldn't call them coops, but they are mutual, they are member owned. There's an opportunity there, to have a different kind of power relationship. So I think with more people under stress, more people are going to be looking for how can we do things, whether or not we take advantage of that for positive results or not, is never a given.
Anthony 56:37
It's up for grabs.
Amanda 56:38
It is up for grabs, and that whole independents movement, depending on your perspective, could also the same politics can be used to get more kind of right wing Trump-like characters in as well. So we're in a period of change. How do we support people while they're in the middle of that, and the stress that comes with that, which is probably going to increase because we're gonna get hit with more things more frequently, to make sure that they can recognize the possibility and have the capacity to act on it in a way that increases the chances of positive response?
Anthony 57:31
Beautiful, Amanda. It's amazing we've had the company of that crow the whole time, isn't it? Having its say.
Amanda 57:51
Yeah, yeah. The soundtrack of my life!
Anthony 57:55
Someone out there is probably thinking, what it was contributing, what it was reflecting in what we were saying. I'm sure it's there. but to close up, Amanda, what is a little story you can tell us about a piece of music that's been significant for you in your life?
Amanda 58:17
Yeah. Guess one that influenced me was - I must have been about 10 or 11, when John Williamson, the Australian country singer put out the Blinky Bill song, and was fundraising for koalas. And he put that song out. And it was all about the fact we were cutting down trees and the kaolas had nowhere to live and they were dying out. And as a very earnest, serious 10 year old who lived in the bush, I was horrified. Like, why are we cutting down these trees? Like, we can save the koalas. And I remember standing up I don't remember what the event was, but doing a solo performance of the song to raise like so that I could collect money to donate to the koala.
Anthony 59:07
You didn't! What, just singing it?
Amanda 59:11
Yeah, it was probably pretty bad.
Anthony 59:13
Awesome. How much did you raise?
Amanda 59:15
I can't remember probably a couple of dollars.
Anthony 59:20
Do you know our young boy, he sang Papa Whiskey November by John Williamson at the Derby market. Raised 50 bucks in five minutes.
Amanda 59:29
Oh, well, no, I wasn't that successful. I don't even know if the money got sent to the koalas. I was just so like, impassioned by that. So yeah. When you asked me that, I was like, isn't it sad that the koalas - we're still cutting down trees ...
Anthony 59:44
Yeah, they're now on the endangered list, sadly, but this is what we can turn around. So here's to that and indeed I believe John Williamson is getting increasingly vocal, not less, so power to him too.
Amanda 59:55
Yeah, he is. But you know, people in the country care. I guess that's the other thing too. I was going to a one teacher school at the time - we were in the bush.
Anthony 1:00:08
That's what I've got in spades out of this project too, this podcast, is the care and the smarts like what you said about people found, why don't we do this out here? No mugs out there. There's plenty, there's so much possibility.
Amanda 1:00:24
And I think if we talk to the best in people, they tend to rise to the occasion. We just need to make it safe and set up the conditions that it's easy for people to get together and figure out what they need to do and get on with it.
Anthony 1:00:35
Bang. Thanks, Amanda. Off to your meeting with the Victorian public sector executives, good luck.
Amanda 1:00:41
Thank you.
Anthony 1:00:41
That was the CEO of The Next Economy, Dr Amanda Cahill. For more on Amanda and The Next Economy, and of course for a transcript of our conversation, see the links in our program details.
Anthony 1:00:41
And incidentally, you'll also find a link there to the next event I'm involved in - the brilliant Quantum Words Festival coming up in Perth from the 16th to the 18th of September. I'll be hosting conversations with Bruce Pascoe, Greg Mullins, Oral McGuire, Lesley Head and others. And David Pollock from Wooleen Station will be amongst it too, along with many other quality folk. The Friday is Schools day too, so if you're a secondary school teacher, come along for free with some students.
Anthony 1:00:41
Thanks as always to the generous supporters who've helped make this episode possible. If you're enjoying what you hear, please consider joining this community of supporting listeners so I can keep the podcast going. Just head to the website via the show notes, regennarration.com/support. Thanks again! And if you can, share this episode with someone you know who you think might like it.
Anthony 1:00:41
The music you're hearing is Regeneration, by Amelia Barden, off the Regenerating Australia soundtrack. My name's Anthony James, thanks for listening.
Music:
Regeneration, composed by Amelia Barden, from the soundtrack of the new film Regenerating Australia, available for community screenings now.